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  • Originally posted by Aargh View Post

    Shox played Missouri and OkSt after practicing 4 on 4 with only 8 players available to practice or play. Played both competitively. NMSU played NAIA teams when they had limited ability to practice.

    Best win NMSU has is over Utah Valley (they split a double-header). Utah valley is 3rd in the WAC. Best win IB has is over the #6 team in the nation, which moved WSU into first place in a league miles above the WAC in significance.
    Shox played after practicing 4 on 4, everyday, in their own gym, sleeping in their own beds, going to regular classes and weight room training, and with all the amenities that come with playing basketball at Wichita State.

    NMSU was forced to relocate to Phoenix, living out of a hotel, and have had to shut down twice because of COVID for two weeks at a time. So for 4 weeks, out of 10 weeks in season before starting back up, they were unable to practice at all.

    Just like the AAC is struggling to decide how to get games rescheduled with teams that were forced to shut down, the WAC is in the same boat. Coaches built their schedules with prime amount of rest during off season, and conference schedules do the same thing. No one is looking to play a game between that cadence.

    Continuing to push this argument shows a clear and pre-determined bias against Coach Jans. No idea why, but kudos to you for sticking to your guns. Surely your next argument will be they haven’t even played a home game. “Who builds a schedule with all your games as road game”.

    I have a huge amount of respect for Coach Brown. He is a great man, great coach, and a great ambassador for Wichita State. He was put in this role for those qualities.

    Swap current roles, and I am advocating for Coach Brown. It is n’t personal. It’s business. And both these professional coaches know that. And if you spent any time on the real world, you have seen what happens when you promote someone to a position they weren’t ready for because of how well liked and respected they are. It rarely works well.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by molly jabali View Post

      ok, I’ll assume Mitgaard did not leave because of IB, for starters... think he might have helped? And I’ll go back to my contention two weeks ago that TALENTWISE this team is no where close to what left, except Tyson,,,and sometimes Dexter.... burton could board, mitgard could board, even TP could board... the bigs and guards who stayed either mostly had not been great rebounders or prominent players... it may take a while to become better at it and frankly they are getting better at it...but Rome is not built in a day...
      never said I was smarter at all... you and I will not make the coaching choice( well, you might because you said you’ll be watching closely, so you MIGHT have a say) but it’s all good... I’m hoping that the team wins out so the conversation is not necessary... not because I think he’s the only coach out there but because he proves he’s the best fit... but I might predict that the next time the Shockers lose....and they probably will.... that you will want to pull the plug on IB....
      hey, have a good night!
      Mittgard left because of playing time just like Morris was going to. None of the 5's took over the 2nd 5 position last year. They should have been shifted around until one earned the playing time. You are in favor of giving away playing time without earning it, so it seems.

      I liked Mitt a lot after the NIT but he had defensive deficiencies, and he didn't improve on them last year. Maybe he still has some of those but is in a conference so weak that he takes over anyway. I don't kow and you don't know either.

      Comment


      • The ideal coach for WSU, one we should all hope to want, is a coach who can have the Shocks in 1st place heading into the month of March. And, going further, maybe even someone who could lead Wichita State to it's best conference start since joining the AAC. Maybe, someday. Oh, wait...

        Comment


        • This nonsense that Chris Jans can’t coach because of this years aberration of a season is totally off the rails. If you think that IB should be the coach next year, list the real reasons: player relationships, continuity and some intuitively masterful coaching decisions. Running down someone that has been on every P5 coaching candidate list the past year isn’t helping your case.

          Comment


          • I think the most important thing to know that we don’t know is what is the salary budget for the coaching staff. For the head coach are there donors willing to pay the right coach what Marshall made. Is it what Marshall made, about $3.5 million, minus the payment he is getting which would leave about $2 million. That would be attractive to a lot of current successful head coaches with longevity at their current school. Is the budget much less, say $1 million on average for 5 years, because of the economic situation that the athletic department may be facing.
            An important consideration for me is this. Has a head coach shown the ability to have consistently good teams as his roster has turned over due to graduation, transfers or players turning pro. Marshall had shown that ability at Winthrop. You need to know if he can win with his own players if you are going to make a big investment in a 5 year contract.
            I think to give a new head coach Isaac Brown the best chance of success is continuity of his assistant coaching staff. I would raise their salaries enough to keep them in place 2 years. I think that is more important than Brown’s initial pay package for his and the program’s continued success. I wonder if Kennedy has decided that he is done with being a head coach for health reasons. If so, make him and Gudino very highly paid assistants. Waterman has shown that he is a very capable recruiter. If Brown is the choice, I think you can offer him a contract which is a good deal for him and the university. He can make much more than he would as a head coach at a lower level D1 job, when you consider what Jans makes and what Forbes made at ETSU, with the chance for unlimited success on the court and a Marshall type contract. You could include many incentives for success as well. If he exceeds expectations, give him a new contract. An initial 5 year, $4.5 million contract could start at $800,000 with $50,000 annual raises and end at $1 million which would be about the time Marshall’s payments will end.
            Without knowing the budget picture, it’s hard to know who would be in the pool of candidates. If it is unlimited, Charles Koch wants a national championship before he dies, offer Tony Bennett, Mark Few or Brad Stevens $10 million a year. If it is Isaac Brown, surround him with the best staff possible including Kennedy or another former successful head coach as an assistant.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by molly jabali View Post

              I never said “ better fit” , just more hoops skill set... if that’s not true then explain five transfers starting/ first one of the bench at their new schools? Jaime over Mo? Terrible fit as it turns out but tdd was talent was there
              If we’re looking at Burton as a PG, I think Gilbert > Burton. If we’re looking at versatility to play multiple positions then Burton > Gilbert.

              Sherfield vs Gilbert? I’ll again take Gilbert. Sherfield is a better shooter but he’s slow, dribbles a lot without passing, and shows little interest in playing defense. Granted, he was just a freshman last year so chances are some of those things would have improved.

              Sherfield vs Porter? This one is a little tougher. If we’re talking defense and rebounding I will take Porter all day. Offensively, Porter is the ultimate pass first point guard so far whereas Sherfield had a more score first mindset. Porter is more athletic and we might not be seeing his full skillset due to missing so many early practices because of COVID and a calf strain. Long term? I don’t know. I need to see more of Porter.

              Fernandes vs Trevin Wade? Not sure how you could make a judgment either way.

              Stevenson vs Etienne. Please. The only thing Stevenson was better at was rebounding. Tyson is so much better in every other area.

              Who do you want to compare Gordon to? Monzy Jackson? I’ll take Jackson.

              Ricky Council is better and has a higher ceiling than any player who left.

              Mitgaard was a polarizing player on this board. Many people hated him as a player. They said he couldn’t play at this level, was terrible etc. A lot of them said the same thing about Mo early this year but I strangely don’t see much of that anymore. Then there was one poster who rode hard for Mit. He’s having a nice year at Grand Canyon. He’s the one guy I think would be an improvement over our current back up center, Chandler.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Shocker82/85 View Post
                I think the most important thing to know that we don’t know is what is the salary budget for the coaching staff. For the head coach are there donors willing to pay the right coach what Marshall made. Is it what Marshall made, about $3.5 million, minus the payment he is getting which would leave about $2 million. That would be attractive to a lot of current successful head coaches with longevity at their current school. Is the budget much less, say $1 million on average for 5 years, because of the economic situation that the athletic department may be facing.
                An important consideration for me is this. Has a head coach shown the ability to have consistently good teams as his roster has turned over due to graduation, transfers or players turning pro. Marshall had shown that ability at Winthrop. You need to know if he can win with his own players if you are going to make a big investment in a 5 year contract.
                I think to give a new head coach Isaac Brown the best chance of success is continuity of his assistant coaching staff. I would raise their salaries enough to keep them in place 2 years. I think that is more important than Brown’s initial pay package for his and the program’s continued success. I wonder if Kennedy has decided that he is done with being a head coach for health reasons. If so, make him and Gudino very highly paid assistants. Waterman has shown that he is a very capable recruiter. If Brown is the choice, I think you can offer him a contract which is a good deal for him and the university. He can make much more than he would as a head coach at a lower level D1 job, when you consider what Jans makes and what Forbes made at ETSU, with the chance for unlimited success on the court and a Marshall type contract. You could include many incentives for success as well. If he exceeds expectations, give him a new contract. An initial 5 year, $4.5 million contract could start at $800,000 with $50,000 annual raises and end at $1 million which would be about the time Marshall’s payments will end.
                Without knowing the budget picture, it’s hard to know who would be in the pool of candidates. If it is unlimited, Charles Koch wants a national championship before he dies, offer Tony Bennett, Mark Few or Brad Stevens $10 million a year. If it is Isaac Brown, surround him with the best staff possible including Kennedy or another former successful head coach as an assistant.
                I agree with all this!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pie n eye View Post


                  Fernandes vs Trevin Wade? Not sure how you could make a judgment either way.
                  How about this:

                  The A-10 is the #8 NET conference, just behind the AAC.

                  Noah's team is is basically #3 in the conference.

                  His Line: 32.4 mpg / 11.9 ppg (3rd on team) / 4.9 rpg (4th on team) / 5.2 assists pg / 2.0 TO pg / 1.9 steals pg / 0.6 blocks pg / 43.5 FG% / 36.6 3pt % / 86.5 FT%

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ShockTalk View Post

                    How about this:

                    The A-10 is the #8 NET conference, just behind the AAC.

                    Noah's team is is basically #3 in the conference.

                    His Line: 32.4 mpg / 11.9 ppg (3rd on team) / 4.9 rpg (4th on team) / 5.2 assists pg / 2.0 TO pg / 1.9 steals pg / 0.6 blocks pg / 43.5 FG% / 36.6 3pt % / 86.5 FT%
                    Those are really good numbers.

                    Last year: 9.9 mpg / 1.4 ppg / 0.8 rpg / 1.2 apg / 1 to pg / 0.62 st pg / 24% fg / 27% 3P / 75% FT

                    Not a whole lot different than what Trevin has done this year. That’s not to say Trevin would make the same year one to year two leap as Noah or that Trevin is as good as Noah. Just trying to add some context to why I’m hesitant to make a judgment.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Shockm View Post

                      Mittgard left because of playing time. MAYBE. I don't know and you don't know either.
                      FIFY

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by pie n eye View Post

                        Those are really good numbers.

                        Last year: 9.9 mpg / 1.4 ppg / 0.8 rpg / 1.2 apg / 1 to pg / 0.62 st pg / 24% fg / 27% 3P / 75% FT

                        Not a whole lot different than what Trevin has done this year. That’s not to say Trevin would make the same year one to year two leap as Noah or that Trevin is as good as Noah. Just trying to add some context to why I’m hesitant to make a judgment.
                        Well, Fernandes is a star and TW ain't

                        Comment


                        • Did not mean to start a firestorm , but I just saw this ... seriously??? Porter even with Sherfrld??? Again, not talking FIT.... and no room for Mitgaard???? And Fernandes?? ( frankly my favorite player last year) AND I SAID not counting Tyson... the best kid stayed... even TP had native talent... we lost some serious discontents/ playing time people/ logjam at a spot guys but you cant say they didn’t have talent... maybe we just see talent differently
                          now I LOVE Gilbert .....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by molly jabali View Post
                            Did not mean to start a firestorm , but I just saw this ... seriously??? Porter even with Sherfrld??? Again, not talking FIT.... and no room for Mitgaard???? And Fernandes?? ( frankly my favorite player last year) AND I SAID not counting Tyson... the best kid stayed... even TP had native talent... we lost some serious discontents/ playing time people/ logjam at a spot guys but you cant say they didn’t have talent... maybe we just see talent differently
                            now I LOVE Gilbert .....
                            Based on your post above I don’t think you actually read what I wrote.

                            Comment


                            • Without knowing the budget picture, it’s hard to know who would be in the pool of candidates. If it is unlimited, Charles Koch wants a national championship before he dies, offer Tony Bennett, Mark Few or Brad Stevens $10 million a year. If it is Isaac Brown, surround him with the best staff possible including Kennedy or another former successful head coach as an assistant.
                              [/QUOTE]

                              There are two huge assumptions about unlimited budgets:

                              1. That Charles Koch actually cares if WSU wins a NC because his name is on the arena. And he actually cares enough to chip in for a 10m a year salary. Is CK's support due to his association with the university or his relationship with GM? And this is not a statement it really is a question.

                              2. That these men are motivated by money which would propell them from their current job.

                              A. Toney Bennet is going to leave Virginia, the defending national champion, who already makes 3.02 million and is a top 10 team this year?

                              B. Mark Few is obviously not motivated by money or he could hav gone some where else. Few's contract is 1.8 million. Shaka Smart's contract is 3.2 and has achieved significantly less. In the last 20 years he definitely could have left for more money.

                              C. Brad Stevens is going to leave the Celtics, making 3.6 million, living in a great town of Boston, coaching in the NBA, to move to Wichita Ks?

                              I mean I guess, but it seems that all of these proposed coaching options are pure speculation. Every coach mentioned on shockernet, the before mentioned or Matta, Beilein, or Jans, I have not found one article that has tied anyone actually to WSU. It seems like a fantasy draft where personalities, relationships, budgets, current coaching situations, Athetic Departments, boosters, or the million other factors are not considered.

                              I know we are all huge fans of WSU, that is why we are all on a message board discussing the minutiae of WSU athletics. This is our weakness, our fanaticism gets in the way and dismiss facts, assumptions, limitations, constraints and feel as though everyone is beating down our door to be our coach.

                              Let's be honest, IB's success has changed the operational environment. How many coaches are going to shy away due to IB's success? No one wants to follow Sinatra (a great performance) and no one wants to follow the coach who was in the running for AAC CoY (who really might win it) after he took over for the best coach in WSU history, and then was not hired. The new coach's margin of error would be minuscule and chances are he would not be as successful as the last two coaches.

                              If I'm rambling, sorry. I'm 4x Tank 7s into writing this post.
                              Last edited by ArmyShockerFan; February 21, 2021, 05:19 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by molly jabali View Post

                                ok, I’ll assume Mitgaard did not leave because of IB, for starters... think he might have helped? And I’ll go back to my contention two weeks ago that TALENTWISE this team is no where close to what left, except Tyson,,,and sometimes Dexter.... burton could board, mitgard could board, even TP could board... the bigs and guards who stayed either mostly had not been great rebounders or prominent players... it may take a while to become better at it and frankly they are getting better at it...but Rome is not built in a day...
                                never said I was smarter at all... you and I will not make the coaching choice( well, you might because you said you’ll be watching closely, so you MIGHT have a say) but it’s all good... I’m hoping that the team wins out so the conversation is not necessary... not because I think he’s the only coach out there but because he proves he’s the best fit... but I might predict that the next time the Shockers lose....and they probably will.... that you will want to pull the plug on IB....
                                hey, have a good night!
                                I don't know how well AM would have helped us. I watched one of his games this year and he wasn't very good on defense. That's why Marshall didn't play him that much. He does good in the league he's in, but he'd have problems defensively in the AAC.

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