American Athletic Conference

[im4wsu]

So where does Jennifer figure into the broadcast?

Wistfully, listening with me in my bedroom!

[1972Shocker]

So where does Jennifer figure into the broadcast?

Wherever she wants no doubt.

[shox526]

P4 Conferences each with two 8 team divisions works for both football and basketball National Championships.

a.) Football National Championship is an eight team playoff, seven games played over three weeks.
b.) Basketball Nation Championship is a 32 team playoff: thirty-one games played over two weeks

Chip Brown's article in Horns Digest IMO makes a valid statement regards the dollars available to the P4 members from a single TV Contract and as illustrated above they can pitch National Championships for both Football and Basketball. The central question is what 8 teams are added to the current ACC, B1G, Pac 12 and SEC conferences? Governor Boren wants to package Oklahoma and Oklahoma State to the SEC but I think that is too problematic; a more likely scenario for schools in the Eastern and Central Time Zones is:

ACC - Cincinnati and Connecticut are added

B1G - Oklahoma and Texas

SEC - Baylor and Oklahoma State

Non selected Big 12 teams could morph into a New Big 8:
1. Kansas
2. Kansas State
3. Texas Tech
4. TCU
5. Iowa State
6. West Virginia
7. Memphis
8. SMU

I know football drives the bus, and there's about a 1/1,000,000 chance this comes to pass, but as I read this list I thought, 'This sounds like a reasonable basketball conference that would actually be more competitive for WSU.'

[Aargh]

Plus, all Bearcat games are on WKRP!

The "Big Guy" delivers all the promotional Thanksgiving turkeys.

[Jatrain]

I am so glad we have an authority on KU athletic department finances on this board. My ignorance about the history of KU's athletic department funding led me to believe the "Williamd" fund was named after Roy. I do know he raised holy hell when he thought too much money from the Williams fund was going to football.

It's great to have KU fans on here to correct any inaccuracies about KU. Correcting inaccuracies about WSU on phog.net is hopeless, but WSU fans seem to have rather higher standardes of decorum than KU fans.

Glad to be of service.

[shocka khan]

There's also an odd little twist in Texas politics. Baylor is well-connected politically and wants to tag along with any conference move Texas makes. That's supposed to be how Baylor ended up in the B12.

Then there's another political contingent in Texas that doesn't want to see Texas Tech left out of any conference moves. There were some rumblings that the Pac-12 wanted Texas back in 2010 (and Texas wanted the Pac-12), but that move was going to be blocked by Texas politics unless Tech also got an invite, and the Pac-12 didn't want Tech.

There's more than one interpretation of "Don't Mess With Texas". That place is a political quagmire.

You are absolutely correct. When UT and A&M threatened to leave the SwC, Ma Richards (Governor) and Bob Bullock (who, IIRC presided over the senate at the time) and were both Baylor alums, threatened to cut both schools funding if Baylor wasn't allowed to tag along. The initial plan was for A&M and UT to leave the SwC and join another conference. Baylor wasn't even in the picture at the time.

I don't think that would ever happen today. Both Richards and Bullock are long, long gone and a guy by the name of Sibley, who was a long-time senator from Waco and presided over the Texas senate himself for a period of time is also gone. Without the legislative pressure from well-connected, long-serving politicians, Baylor does not have the political pull that it had during those times and has no card to play if they get left out (assuming the B12 implodes). While it would be a no-brainer for the Oklahoma schools and Texas to be wanted by another conference, the remainder of the B12 might be up in the air. TCU and/or TTech (given Tech's enrollment and alumni numbers as well as their Tier 1 research institution status) would be at least as attractive to another conference as Baylor.

I would also argue that West Virginia would be a better fit for the ACC than Cincinati, but the only way that would work would be if the B12 were falling apart and the ACC were looking at the same time, which might be tricky.

[RoyalShock]

I am so glad we have an authority on KU athletic department finances on this board. My ignorance about the history of KU's athletic department funding led me to believe the "Williamd" fund was named after Roy. I do know he raised holy hell when he thought too much money from the Williams fund was going to football.

It's great to have KU fans on here to correct any inaccuracies about KU. Correcting inaccuracies about WSU on phog.net is hopeless, but WSU fans seem to have rather higher standardes of decorum than KU fans.

Even I knew the Williams fund had nothing to do with ol' Roy. I just chose not to be the one to say it. I guess that makes me a KU fan, too.

(Pardon me while I go take a shower. I feel dirty even making the insinuation.)

[Rlh04d]

Don't disagree about the B12, they're in sad shape, mostly because no one trusts Texas. They're the tail that wags the dog. And they'll be that in any P4 conference they go to. Too many alums thinking they're all that and more, an endowment fund that is second only to Harvard and wealthy alums showering money on their underperforming athletic programs.

As far as the B1G signing a big money deal, it could turn out like the Big Least and fox network if Rutgers can't upgrade their sports. I'm just not convinced that adding Rutgers is going to translate into a bonanza for the B1G. Maybe on the next TV contract, but when the TV execs see they're not getting any TV's in the NYC market that may change when the execs don't see ratings numbers.

You're looking at this wrong. Ratings aren't what's important here.

What's important is getting enough interest in a market to get it added to base cable packages. Look at ESPN -- ESPN's ratings matter in terms of advertising dollars, but what's really important to them is that they charge the cable companies a large amount to be carried on base cable packages. Whether you watch ESPN or not, you're paying ESPN, because ENOUGH people watch ESPN that EVERYONE now has it. ESPN gets something like $5 from every cable subscriber in the country.

If the B1G Network is just popular enough to be added to base cable packages in the NYC market, it doesn't really matter how many people in NYC actually watch it. Everyone would be paying for it regardless of whether they watch it or not. Ratings will matter after that for selling advertising rights, but the cable package dollars are likely more important.

I don't pretend to know how likely it is that Rutgers will actually be able to do that, but that's the goal there. It's also worth noting that Rutgers isn't expected to simply carry the NYC market by itself. The NYC market is one filled with transplants, usually well educated, because it's expensive there. I would guess the B1G believes their schools already have large alumni bases in that market, and the Rutgers alumni base is expected to add to the alumni of the other B1G schools to push interest in their network over the top for cable package inclusion.

I would think that was kind of the hope with Chicago for the MVC as well, on a smaller level. I doubt the MVC really ever hoped Loyola would deliver Chicago, just that Loyola would help raise the interest for the conference in Chicago by combining with MVC alumni already in that market, due to it being the biggest metro area in the conference's territory, and thus a magnet for the educated workforce in the midwest.

[Rlh04d]

I would also argue that West Virginia would be a better fit for the ACC than Cincinati, but the only way that would work would be if the B12 were falling apart and the ACC were looking at the same time, which might be tricky.

It's very unlikely the ACC would want either. Neither has good academics, which the ACC pays attention to unless athletics are so good that they will overlook them. West Virginia also has little media market contribution.

If the ACC wanted WVU they would have already taken them.

If the ACC takes another school, it'll be UConn, and only if ND joins fully, which absolutely isn't happening any time soon, and probably won't ever happen, unless the ACC makes major concessions in terms of allowing ND to retain its independent TV deal with NBC. Which is possible.

You can't just look at conference realignment like all conferences are the same. Like the comment you quoted about Texas and Oklahoma joining the B1G -- the B1G is currently made up of 14 schools. 13 of those schools are AAU institutions, and the only one that isn't is Nebraska, which was stripped of AAU status after joining. Oklahoma is not an AAU school, and Oklahoma is not going to join the B1G without being an AAU school.

Every conference is looking at expansion slightly differently. They're not going to just divide up the pie by what makes sense geographically or athletically.

[rayc]

You're looking at this wrong. Ratings aren't what's important here.

What's important is getting enough interest in a market to get it added to base cable packages. Look at ESPN -- ESPN's ratings matter in terms of advertising dollars, but what's really important to them is that they charge the cable companies a large amount to be carried on base cable packages. Whether you watch ESPN or not, you're paying ESPN, because ENOUGH people watch ESPN that EVERYONE now has it. ESPN gets something like $5 from every cable subscriber in the country.

If the B1G Network is just popular enough to be added to base cable packages in the NYC market, it doesn't really matter how many people in NYC actually watch it. Everyone would be paying for it regardless of whether they watch it or not. Ratings will matter after that for selling advertising rights, but the cable package dollars are likely more important.

I don't pretend to know how likely it is that Rutgers will actually be able to do that, but that's the goal there. It's also worth noting that Rutgers isn't expected to simply carry the NYC market by itself. The NYC market is one filled with transplants, usually well educated, because it's expensive there. I would guess the B1G believes their schools already have large alumni bases in that market, and the Rutgers alumni base is expected to add to the alumni of the other B1G schools to push interest in their network over the top for cable package inclusion.

I would think that was kind of the hope with Chicago for the MVC as well, on a smaller level. I doubt the MVC really ever hoped Loyola would deliver Chicago, just that Loyola would help raise the interest for the conference in Chicago by combining with MVC alumni already in that market, due to it being the biggest metro area in the conference's territory, and thus a magnet for the educated workforce in the midwest.

Here is an interesting article related to this discussion. I would love to see a true menu driven mandate for cable companies.
I really hate knowing I'm giving money to the Big 10,12, etc. because I can't get a channel I would like except as part of a
"package".

http://www.businessinsider.com/cost-cutting-is-coming-to-espn-2015-7#ixzz3fVfxftyJ

[Rlh04d]

Here is an interesting article related to this discussion. I would love to see a true menu driven mandate for cable companies.
I really hate knowing I'm giving money to the Big 10,12, etc. because I can't get a channel I would like except as part of a
"package".

http://www.businessinsider.com/cost-...#ixzz3fVfxftyJ

That's a really interesting article. ESPN has benefited SO much from the current cable model I can definitely see them having a lot more trouble as we continue to make the obvious move forward to a more "ala carte" cable service with options like Sling TV.

Also, I was literally considering switching to Sling TV when you posted this. I actually came over here while I was in the process of calculating the price difference versus the fee for terminating my contract with Verizon early :) That comment about Disney's deal with Dish to take ESPN off Sling if it crossed 3 million Nielson homes is scary -- I was specifically looking at Sling so that I could keep ESPN/ESPN3 for Shocker games.

It is really possible that ESPN's become so expensive, and how much of the average cable subscription goes to them has become so public, that cable companies are going to begin to reject ESPN as part of their base package. And they'll never be able to make as much with an HBOGO type service.

[MoValley John]

Very goos analysis, Rlh04d. I still think in a doomsday scenario, WVA gets into the ACC. At the point of moving to 16 schools, there just aren't that many to go around. Then again, if the ACC can force Notre Dame in, then maybe WVA, along with schools like Kansas, needs to be concerned.

[Rlh04d]

Very goos analysis, Rlh04d. I still think in a doomsday scenario, WVA gets into the ACC. At the point of moving to 16 schools, there just aren't that many to go around. Then again, if the ACC can force Notre Dame in, then maybe WVA, along with schools like Kansas, needs to be concerned.

It's possible. At some point West Virginia's going to be better than some other possible options, like Memphis.

Notre Dame as a full member is the #1 choice beyond any doubt, although very unlikely. UConn is almost without a doubt #2 -- great basketball, decent football, good academics, and a new market; they basically match what ACC wants across the board. If their football was better it would be a no-brainer. Cinci probably #3. Really, expansion into either Ohio or Texas should be high up on the ACC's list of priorities, for population and recruiting. And those two states together have about 10 FBS schools above West Virginia in academics.

West Virginia's a rather poor academic university in a metro area with just 130k people, in a state ranked 38th by population. West Virginia's biggest claim is not being terrible at anything. If I was dividing up schools just based on quality of teams in the big two sports, I'd want West Virginia in the ACC, but quality of teams don't tend to drive conference realignment unless you're an elite athletic program. It's why we're in the MVC. It's usually about adding new TV markets, new recruiting territories, or what I can only guess is about ego with the ACC and academics (considering they don't have a similar setup to the B1G, which actually builds academic cooperation into the conference). The only really comparable ACC team would be Louisville, and Louisville's in a far bigger metro area, has a better athletic department financially, and probably still wouldn't have been added if it wasn't for the ACC needing some more respect in football and to placate the schools like FSU who started publicly expressing frustration with the conference.

I just think the ACC would probably rank about 10 schools ahead of WVU for membership, and there would really have to be a storm of membership choices for all of those schools to be off the table first.

[Shocker1976]

Very goos analysis, Rlh04d. I still think in a doomsday scenario, WVA gets into the ACC. At the point of moving to 16 schools, there just aren't that many to go around. Then again, if the ACC can force Notre Dame in, then maybe WVA, along with schools like Kansas, needs to be concerned.

As posted previously, UCONN is the most likely to join the ACC; IMO Cincinnati offers more than WVU to the ACC:

UCONN - Football and Basketball (with National Championships); academic rank of 58; and a $328 endowment

Cincinnati - Football and Basketball teams; academic rank of 129; and a $1 billion endowment

WVU - Football and Basketball teams, academic rank of 168; and a $466 million endowment

[Veritas]

Very goos analysis, Rlh04d. I still think in a doomsday scenario, WVA gets into the ACC. At the point of moving to 16 schools, there just aren't that many to go around. Then again, if the ACC can force Notre Dame in, then maybe WVA, along with schools like Kansas, needs to be concerned.

"schools like Kansas"...???
Based on your internal analysis, how do you evaluate the following schools being safe for P4 inclusion (based on expansion of P4)
KSU
ISU
KU
TCU
WVU
If you believe they wouldn't be included, which schools do you think keep them out and for what reason?
Please don't use "football schools" as your main argument. Put your P4 expansion hat on looking at the multiple variables involved.
I'm curious as to your pecking order and why?