2015-16 Media love thread

[Kel Varnsen]

I look at chasing the one-and-dones as (partly) a branding issue. When you are a program who works well developing players as sophomores, juniors, and seniors, chasing players who will only be there hurts your product mix. You're trying to be something you're not. Now, I think a lot of these coaches truly believe that the players they are getting are making them better, and in some instances, that's the case (UK, Duke last year). I just don't think you'll ever see Bo Ryan or Tom Izzo chasing a large amount of one-and-dones because they know it may take away from what they do best and how their team is structured. Plus, high turnover in any industry is never good.

[Aargh]

I get the feeling that donors and boosters at Texas are accustomed to being able to tell the athletic department and coaches how they need to do their jobs. That might not be a good fit with Marshall.

[WSUwatcher]

Thanks!

Key words = "most likely"

Not really, WstateU -- the key words are "IF he ever left" (my emphasis on the IF). I can certainly see Texas being a concern, and I've commented on it myself in the past: essentially infinite resources, a terrific, lively place to live (more expensive than Wichita, but at $3+ million per year, who cares?), year-round warm weather, great recruiting base, etc.

But it also comes with bandwagon fans who don't care all that much and permanent, unchangeable second fiddle status for basketball, neither of which is a great fit for Marshall. It may be more dangerous now that they're rid of their idiot AD, but the other negative factors about Texas remain and always will.

[WuShock16]

I get the feeling that donors and boosters at Texas are accustomed to being able to tell the athletic department and coaches how they need to do their jobs. That absolutely would not be a good fit with Marshall.

FIFY

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Barring any implausible scenario, Shaka Smart has made Texas a non-issue for our annual spring worry-fest for at least the next few seasons.

Also, barring any implausible scenario, Marshall's new $3 million contract has made virtually all but a handful of elite programs a non-issue for our annual spring worry-fest for the foreseeable future. Seth's reasoning is normally sound, but on this point his insinuation seems somewhat odd and ignorant.

[wu_shizzle]

Barring any implausible scenario, Shaka Smart has made Texas a non-issue for our annual spring worry-fest for at least the next few seasons.

Also, barring any implausible scenario, Marshall's new $3 million contract has made virtually all but a handful of elite programs a non-issue for our annual spring worry-fest for the foreseeable future. Seth's reasoning is normally sound, but on this point his insinuation seems somewhat odd and ignorant.

Doesn't it feel like our 2006 Sweet Sixteen under a previous coach was never a consideration about why our program has staying power?

Yes Mark Turgeon and Gregg Marshall are great coaches, but neither comes here unless the "Fiscal and Physical" resources are there.

Those aren't going away when sometime in the future we need to hire another coach.

[WSUwatcher]

Agreed on all counts, RMS. If anything, Smart's job security probably increased when the AD who hired him was dumped, strange as that may sound.

Seth Davis still just can't quite get past the notion of WSU as another "little (mid-major) engine that could," even though Marshall's contract should put that mindset to rest for keeps; and until he revises his thinking he'll be operating under a fatally flawed premise that causes him to reach faulty conclusions in whatever predictions he makes about the basketball future at WSU.

[WSUwatcher]

duplicate post

[another shocker]

Aside from my love of all things Shocker athletics, the main reason I would hate to see 3G take a P5 job is because of how much I love his style. I love the players he is able to bring in, how he gets them to work hard and use the fundamentals, stay in school and become tremendous 4 year athletes. Top P5 programs chase the one and done athlete (or the 2 year player), and I just don't like that system. I don't think many coaches (Bill Self included) like chasing the one and dones, but much of the fan base and administrations expect the best players available to sign with them. It's an ego issue. I'd much rather see a Cotton, VanVleet, Baker, Brown, Morris, etc. grow and be a nightmare for the MVC and NCAA for multiple years. I would be concerned if 3G ever did leave for a top P5 job, the administration & fan base would expect him to change, and I think that would be a terrible thing.

i would not like to see hcgm at a p5 school because i might get jealous. you just know that said school basketball team would be carrying themselves so well, with great, unparalelled on-court maturity and class.. yet the balance of on-court enthusiasm would fit perfect. i.e. that guy has a national championship in him (as i've said here before).. i just hope it's at wichita state.

[SHOCKvalue]

Sports Illustrated asks the question, "Is This the End of Wichita State's Run?" in this Seth Davis penned article:

http://www.si.com/college-basketball...-kansas-big-12

Is there some sort of a new world timeline that was started in 2013 that only applies to WSU? Is WSU MBB history pre-2013 now classified material that we don't speak of? Historically redacted with respect to the US sports media?

Is the ground work that was laid for the 2013 F4 irrelevant since we are not a P5? Were the 2007-2010 trendline, the 2011 NIT championship, and the 2012 #5 seed (with some time spent that season in the AP top 15) immaterial for some reason? Was that 2006 S16 all in our imaginations, as wu_shizzle pointed out? Does the previous F4, and the prior 3 E8's and 3 S16's, not mean anything since we lack a conference affiliation prerequisite? I don't get it.

Is the financial support that puts us at roughly the 80th percentile nationally as of most recent data (and will put us at roughly the 90th percentile nationally after Marshall's new contract is included in next year's figures) not an indication of long-term program viability? I mean some of the schools one might recognize in the 80-90th percentile range would be Maryland, Oregon, Missouri, Iowa State, Ohio State, among others. Outside of WSU, VCU, SDSU, BYU, and Gonzaga, the range is entirely populated by P5 schools with a few of the more financially-committed AAC and BE programs thrown in for good measure.

If the "mid-major" term is defined by history, fan support, or fiscal support, then there should perhaps be a size 15 asterick beside WSU if you insist on shoving the Shocks into that ideological corner.

And am I the only one growing tired of the "Koch brothers" references with regards to our program and Marshall's contract? First, the obvious: It is not the "Koch brothers"; it is Charles Koch who has been writing the checks. Second: There's a rather substantial list of big money WSU boosters who should also be recognized for their support of the program and the new contract, to say nothing of Joe Blow up in the CKA nosebleeds who is happy to pay 30% more for his seats than he was paying just two years ago. The current financial state of the program is not just Charles Koch plus a bunch of pennies thrown in to the fountain by the proletariat, which seems to be the national vibe.

[Shocker1976]

I still feel as though our arrow is pointing emphatically UP! I feel like each new recruiting class is better than the last...It would be silly to say GM is not the catalyst, but I would also argue that if he left tomorrow, we will not fall off the map...

If we had made better hires in the 90s, we would have had plenty of success. Those 3 hires in a row would have tanked even the greatest power program too. I dont believe we were ever on par with your average mid major, even when our teams sucked.

IMO the Coach is the catalyst for every CBB program and Phog Allen is the cornerstone coach on which college basketball is built. The Beakers were very fortunate to have had him as their coach although they failed to replace him with a quality coach. Witness Dick Harp (1956-64 with a w/l of 121-82)) and Ted Owens (1964-83 with a w/l of 348-182)), acceptable coaches who could not sustain KU as "the CBB team" in the NCAA. Then the Beakers hired Larry "the cheater" Brown (1983-88 with a w/l 135-44)) who delivered a National Champion via his "purchase" of Danny Manning; followed by Roy Williams (1988-2003 with a w/l of 418-101) a great coach but no NC; finally Bill Self (2003-present with a w/l of 359-77) who delivered a NC and is clearly the best KU coach since Phog.

The Shockers received a gift from Phog Allen in Ralph Miller (1951-64 with a w/l of 220-133). Unfortunately the Shockers lost 14 years of quality coaching with hires Gary Thompson (w/l 93-94) and Harry Miller (w/l 97-90). Finally hiring Gene Smithson (1978-86 with a w/l of 155-81) who was on a path to surpass Ralph and deliver a NC but had to pay for Harry Miller transgressions. Eddie "the opportunist" Fogler (1986-89 with a w/l of 61-32) gave the Shockers three years of respectable coaching before the Shockers entered death valley and hired Abbott and Costello (Mike Cohen w/l 32-56; Scott Thompson w/l 40-70); followed by Randy Smithson (1996-2000 with a w/l of 55-62) who was beset with personal demons that prevented him from matching his father's record as HC. Mark Turgeon (2000-2007 with a w/l of 128-90) reinvigorated the Shocker program but moved-on when expectations exceeded his confidence that he could produce; which resulted IMO in the hiring of clearly the best Shocker coach since Ralph Miller - Gregg Marshall (2007 to present with a w/l of 204-75)). HC3G has not only restored the Shocker program to the heights enjoyed by Ralph's early 1960's teams but has IMO moved the Shockers to a stage where they may enter a level of performance never before witnessed by Shocker fans.

The coming seasons will inform whether HC3G becomes the second Hall of Fame Coach from WSU and the first to reach this status while coaching the Shockers.

[wusphlash]

Seth's comments aren't all that upsetting to me.

He points out that we have maintained relevance when others have not. That's good.

He thinks that Texas would have snatched Gregg if they would have offered him the job. I believe Texas was much more of a threat than Alabama. I'm thankful Patterson is an idiot. By the way, Gregg is still in Wichita and I am of the opinion that is not likely to change until he retires the pea in his whistle.

I think, based on all the attention they are getting, Seth's question regarding the departure of Baker and VanVleet is fair from a journalistic standpoint. There will be life after Fred and Ron. In my opinion, I believe that the pre F&R 2011-2012 team would have been very competitive with the three Shocker squads that followed. Plus, the caliber and depth of the FR and SO classes is unparalleled in Gregg's tenure at WSU.

We will be positively relevant as long as Gregg is here. What happens after he leaves remains to be seen, probably in ten to twelve years. Seth will eventually come to accept that.

[Cdizzle]

Either Fred and Ron are so good that we are a preseason top 5 team and there will be a dropoff next year, or they are not that good and we will continue to be as good as we are.

If Baker and FVV are generational type players as many keep contending, then they need to rank this team about 10 places higher than they have been.

[another shocker]

IMO the Coach is the catalyst for every CBB program and Phog Allen is the cornerstone coach on which college basketball is built. The Beakers were very fortunate to have had him as their coach although they failed to replace him with a quality coach. Witness Dick Harp (1956-64 with a w/l of 121-82)) and Ted Owens (1964-83 with a w/l of 348-182)), acceptable coaches who could not sustain KU as "the CBB team" in the NCAA. Then the Beakers hired Larry "the cheater" Brown (1983-88 with a w/l 135-44)) who delivered a National Champion via his "purchase" of Danny Manning; followed by Roy Williams (1988-2003 with a w/l of 418-101) a great coach but no NC; finally Bill Self (2003-present with a w/l of 359-77) who delivered a NC and is clearly the best KU coach since Phog.

The Shockers received a gift from Phog Allen in Ralph Miller (1951-64 with a w/l of 220-133). Unfortunately the Shockers lost 14 years of quality coaching with hires Gary Thompson (w/l 93-94) and Harry Miller (w/l 97-90). Finally hiring Gene Smithson (1978-86 with a w/l of 155-81) who was on a path to surpass Ralph and deliver a NC but had to pay for Harry Miller transgressions. Eddie "the opportunist" Fogler (1986-89 with a w/l of 61-32) gave the Shockers three years of respectable coaching before the Shockers entered death valley and hired Abbott and Costello (Mike Cohen w/l 32-56; Scott Thompson w/l 40-70); followed by Randy Smithson (1996-2000 with a w/l of 55-62) who was beset with personal demons that prevented him from matching his father's record as HC. Mark Turgeon (2000-2007 with a w/l of 128-90) reinvigorated the Shocker program but moved-on when expectations exceeded his confidence that he could produce; which resulted IMO in the hiring of clearly the best Shocker coach since Ralph Miller - Gregg Marshall (2007 to present with a w/l of 204-75)). HC3G has not only restored the Shocker program to the heights enjoyed by Ralph's early 1960's teams but has IMO moved the Shockers to a stage where they may enter a level of performance never before witnessed by Shocker fans.

The coming seasons will inform whether HC3G becomes the second Hall of Fame Coach from WSU and the first to reach this status while coaching the Shockers.

didn't ralph miller receive a gift when he was chosen as wichita state head coach? and he left prior to dave stallworth's senior season?! hell, he was as bad as turgeon/fogler.. (ku/unc guys never see wichita state as anything other than chopped liver) but a better coach on the floor. do not hire ku/unc guys anymore!!!!!!!!!

[wufan]

Marshall is the greatest coach we've ever seen here and he is not replaceable. Fred and Ron are the best backcourt duo we've ever had. They, however are replaceable.

Gene Smithson (he left when I was 7 so feel free to correct me) was a great evaluator of talent and knew how to utilize them, but was not a great coach. He also had demons that prevented him from being successful to the level of Nolan Richardson.