Poll Watch (2013-14 Edition)

[WillieJeffJeffries]

Try working on your reading skills. From the article:

"Ron Baker and new point guard Fred VanVleet can both shoot the ball from three. Baker -- who can score as a two-guard and is big and strong around the basket -- has a chance to be the best player in the Missouri Valley this year."

"Tekele Cotton is a solid mid-range scorer and very good finisher at 6-2, and while he isnt a three-point shooter, he knows it and takes good shots."

"Also great in transition is forward Cleanthony Early. Early is a vital weapon as a face-up four man who has the green light thanks to deep range and the guts to take a shot whenever. Early also finishes well above the rim, including in transition, and can run as he smells points."

"Chadrack Lufile is the Shockers' best big man, can score a little at the block and is solid on his second-shot offense."

How dare he bash our players like that.....lol. This is the honeymoon phase people, nothing he said is out of line. If WSU gets by bama and tenn and is 25-0 ranked #1 going into March then spit will hit the fan re WSU and their conference.......that's why there is march madness

[MadaboutWu]

No, he meant that he called the games on TV.... he was one of the crew calling the game for CBS....

Yes, I understand that. My point was that "after calling the 'shocking' upsets" is more than ambiguous--its usual meaning is "predicting the upsets"--so it seemed fairly deceptive. If he didn't want to sound like he was bragging he could have said, "After calling several Shocker games in their 'shocking' run" or whatever. Sorry to get pedantic.

[The Mad Hatter]

Are we really so high on the Shockers that someone who wrote an opinion article about how the Shox look like a quality team with the potential to be a top 10 team if things click needs to be bashed? Is believing the Shox are indisputably a top 10 team now the only reasonable opinion? Is this team THAT good? My goodness, you would think he wrote about how WSU will be in the NIT at year's end.

Criticize on you knuckleheads.

The criticism is not based upon the idea that this team can't be criticized, but based on 2 things:

1. Gottlieb has this statement near the opening of the article:

In truth, it may have been especially difficult to determine how good Wichita State is based upon the SLU game, as the officiating was in a time warp to last season and there was no emphasis on the new "freedom of movement" rules.

He then proceeds to ignore this statement in evaluating all of our players, especially FVV. Take this later statement:

Wichita doesn't have enough dribble-drive players to account for the new officiating guidelines and get them to the line.

How in the world would you know this when you admit that the way the game was officiated at SLU ignored the new officiating guidelines?

2. In a week where KU and Duke both LOSE yet stay in the top 10, why is the only article written questioning who belongs in the top 10 about the team that went on the road and WON over a top flight defense?

[wufan]

I am glad that we are in the discussion of whether or not we deserve a top 10 ranking. It means we've accomplished something. I'm glad that Doug Gottlieb is doing a full article on his opinion of WSU. I'm frustrated that he is basing his conclusions based on the Louisville game and the SLU game sans every other game we've played, but here is what I took from the article:

"There's still much to like about this team, which should be the champion of a Missouri Valley that is a a bit down. Many of the top teams in both the country and conference would want no part of the Wichita State "Play Angry" style. Koch Arena is rabid as ever, which helps, as does the confidence that comes with reaching a Final Four. But I am talking big picture, top 10 team kinds of issues, not small-time issues, and in that context the Shockers have some problems."

Basically, we've arrived on the national scene and Doug is scrutinizing us versus the Wolverines, Orange men, and Buckeyes of the world. Now, those teams need to step out on the road and prove their mettle because as far as I'm concerned we're a top 10 team as long as we keep winning!

[I_Vector_Wu]

Mike DeCourcy is the E.F. Hutton of college sportswriters, he speaks the gospel truth, Mr. Gottlieb, eh, not so much :pirate:

[kcshocker11]

Gottlieb can think what he wants but I've noticed a change in basketball fans opinion of the Shocks. Heres an examplehttp://www.collegebasketball.rivals....d=1146&style=2

[Capitol Shock II]

All the national basketball scene is doing is making us angry and you know what happens when we play angry.

[jocoshock]

I'm pretty much with @TheYeti: on this one. Mostly, I don't care about the rankings. What annoys me is when WSU is held to a different standard than other schools. Look, you want to put Villanova in the poll this week at 5 after their performance last week? You'll get little beef from me. They beat some really good teams, and none of them at home. I might say that's a bit high, and 10-15 might be more accurate, but I get putting them there. They deserve it.

But if you're going to give team #1 a pass (say Syracuse) who plays ZERO road games out of conference and isn't even impressive doing so, then I'm not going to apologize for or not defend our ranking, even if I think it might be inflated.

In other words, either everyone has to prove their mettle, or nobody does. No free rides for Duke while we have to beat the best to be even considered, especially when the team As and Duke (for instance) won't play us EVER on even grounds.

Now, is being in the top 10 fun? You bet! And I will enjoy it and the consuming of mass quantities.

It's a country club and we are Rodney Dangerfield and Chevy Chase. Embrace it. In the end, Lacey Underalls will be riding our bandwagon like a cowgirl at the rodeo.

[The Mad Hatter]

The other reason that it is silly to single out WSU in questioning our meriting a top 10 ranking (as though it was all about our Final Four run) is that the best objective metrics have us as a top 10 team.

Pomeroy has us at #9
Sagarin has us at #6
Massey Composite (average of 27 ranking systems) has us at #5

Syracuse is #13, #13, & #6
Wisconsin is #17, #15, & #7
Duke is #28, #25, & #29

For the most part, the top ten in the polls correlates pretty well with what the objective metrics say. There are some outliers, but WSU is not one of them.

[proshox]

Great assessment by Doug. He isn't out of line on any of our weaknesses. He under played some of our strengths, but the point of the story was to identify the chinks in the armor.

Fred is not the ball handler against a physical defense that Malcolm was and his defense has room for growth.

Clea can be one of the best post up players in the nation, but has avoided doing much of that dirty work since Hall returned from the hand injury last year.

Our bench has not been reliable.

Our five spot is still a question mark when compared to other top 25 teams.

Those are the kind of issues that are going to create doubt until we play and beat a top ten team. Unfortunately, that will not happen until the tournament.

[AndShock]

Moral of this whole story: Doug hasn't gotten any smarter in 5 years.

http://shockernet.net/forum/showthread.php?2714-Dear-Doug-Gottlieb-and-Andy-Katz

[wufan]

Moral of this whole story: Doug hasn't gotten any smarter in 5 years.

http://shockernet.net/forum/showthre...-and-Andy-Katz

That was a good read after our 11-20 season. Lots of optimism as well as a couple of posters stating they'd rather have a sweet 16 than 2 NIT Championships.

[Kung Wu]

It's a country club and we are Rodney Dangerfield and Chevy Chase. Embrace it. In the end, Lacey Underalls will be riding our bandwagon like a cowgirl at the rodeo.

They're gonna regret giving HC3GM that blue blazer!

[Kung Wu]

Fred is not the ball handler against a physical defense that Malcolm was and his defense has room for growth.

Malcolm had several games where he was terrible handling the ball. In fact he stringed a few of them together. But overall he was solid.

Let's compare FVV's raw turnover counts, assists, and A/T ratio at the end of the regular season (against a better SOS) as a sophomore to Malcolm's numbers. I gotta feeling you are going to be surprised.

Example.

Ball handling
---
Through game 8 last season Armstead had 15 total turnovers. Van Vleet has had 14.
Through game 8 last season Armstead had 27 assists. Van Vleet has 44 (!).

Defense
--
Through game 8 last season Armstead had 16 steals. Van Vleet has 17. And we know how special Malcolm was at steals.
Through game 8 last season Armstead had 20 defensive rebounds. Van Vleet has 21.

I won't even touch scoring, because Van Vleet is crushing Armstead there and this isn't about knocking Armstead. But Fred as a sophomore is going to exceed Armstead's senior numbers in about every possible category. And don't give me intangibles on defense, FVV is a Spry Guy (kind of like McDonald's Fry Guy, but less yellow).

Van Vleet is a stud the likes of which I haven't seen at Wichita State in my lifetime and Gottlieb has chosen to grade him on the only game he has seen him play this year. And his very public and well read opinion about WSU not being a top 10 caliber team hinges on that under informed conclusion. That will affect voters' opinions that haven't watched WSU.

[HockeyShock]

What annoys me about the polls isn't the commentary by Gottlieb et al. Their job is to stir up crap for the readership. Go in with an honest look sometime; EVERYBODY gets trashed, and everybody thinks it's unfair. That stirs people up and drives up page views. It's sportswriting 101.

(That being said, it IS fun to single out where it's obvious the sportswriter has no clue about his/her subject matter, like the yahoo that said that Ron Baker was not a factor in last year's Final Four run.)

What annoys me is that KU lays three huge turd-burgers in Atlantis, that they won two of the three is beside the point, and they didn't even drop out of the top ten. I either watched or listened to parts of all of those games, and at each point, the only person I thought would be a problem if WSU played them would be Embiid. Wiggins is turning into McLemore v2.0. Perry is great but isn't the leader he could be or should be, and our guards are simply miles ahead of theirs. They barely beat Wake, they didn't beat 'Nova, and they barely beat UTEP (anybody else remember when UTEP sent them packing out of the tourney back in '92, I think?). They did not look like a top ten team, but apparently they still are, because Wiggins I guess.

What also annoys me is that Duke has two losses now and is also still in the top ten. Yes, the losses were both to other top ten teams, but therein lies the double standard. Most other teams (not just WSU, but even most major conference schools - NC State for example) would be dreaming if they thought they could still be in the top 25 after two losses in the first HALF of the non-con schedule (see also: Creighton. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEE...), but Duke gets to stay in the top TEN. And not many people (Andy Glockner did last week) mention that Duke has ONE, repeat ONE true road game in their non-con. ONE.

And speaking of teams with two losses that are still, somehow, in the top 25: I wonder if UAB has gotten the first phone call from the NCAA yet. Roy doesn't let those slights go easily.

Anyway, enough negatives. We're 10/11. There was a time I thought we'd never get that high ever again (my first semester was fall '92. YOU do the math). The team is already good, and it's getting BETTER. Lufile is working himself into the big dog role, one improvement at a time. Coleby and Carter will get it together. I promise you they will. And I wouldn't trade our three starting guards for any other guards in the whole of the NCAA, and that's the honest truth. I think all three will have fruitful NBA careers, God willing. All three are unflappable, ice-water-veined studs that will lead the team to something special ... AGAIN.

Yes, I'm having a beer as I'm writing this. You should too. :)