Bryan Penn-Johnson 7'0 C 2018 to Washington

[12eagle]

You obviously are a Big NBA guy who consistently says that players should jump most of the time and refuses to point out the down side for jumping. I think that Penn is raw and not a one and done player and you think he is that good. You point all of the success that the NBA has developing players but you didn't mention Cliff Alexander who fell from prodigy status to failure status in two years. He was viewed as a sure thing.

Quick fact check POB was drafted 9th very few players with a top 10 projection return to school.
Cliff Alexander was undrafted, teams are not going to invest imuch time and resources developing a player that they did not draft.
I believe player development by coaches is overrated so much of it comes down to things coaches can't control such as work ethic and physical development. I believe our coaching staff greatest skill player evaluation. They are great talent evaluators.

[1972Shocker]

I believe our coaching staff greatest skill player evaluation. They are great talent evaluators.

I agree that the Shocker coaching staff are good talent evaluators. However, I think they also do a pretty good job of finding good character kids which, in the Marshall system. only enhances the basketball talent they bring. Some of it is the Marshall Way draws out the best of a kids character and employs his talent in a way the benefits the team to the greatest degree. Good character begets more good character.

[another shocker]

Ok. Willie stayed at U.K. For two-three years. You made the argument I was making. POB was raw and nobody had heard about him because he hadn't played very much in high school and my point was he should have stayed at Bradley instead of leaving for the NBA after his freshman year. He was drafted late in the first round but wasn't ready to leave. Penn probably has more ability than POB, but for you to dis O'bryant is just stupid.

i didn't dis pob, miss prissy.

[ShockCrazy]

Quick fact check POB was drafted 9th very few players with a top 10 projection return to school.
Cliff Alexander was undrafted, teams are not going to invest imuch time and resources developing a player that they did not draft.
I believe player development by coaches is overrated so much of it comes down to things coaches can't control such as work ethic and physical development. I believe our coaching staff greatest skill player evaluation. They are great talent evaluators.

Also using POB as a cite for a undeveloped player by the NBA is kinda wrong. Here's a guy who made around 6 mil in his NBA career despite having what he admits as a shitty work ethic. http://www.sportando.com/en/usa/nba/...very-hard.html

[shockmonster]

Also using POB as a cite for a undeveloped player by the NBA is kinda wrong. Here's a guy who made around 6 mil in his NBA career despite having what he admits as a shitty work ethic. http://www.sportando.com/en/usa/nba/...very-hard.html

Partially you are proving my point about proper development. I don't disagree that POB made a lot of money and I don't disagree that Penn seems to be on track to make a lot of money. But does POB still own any of it? Was he mature enough when he made it to "tuck" some away like Ron has or did he have a spending spree and it was gone? I don't know those answers but I have an inkling of what might have happened because of his other immature actions.

So this is the question to answer. How many millions could POB have made if he had Gregg Marshall and company developing his work ethic, decision making, and maturity? The proper NCAA environment is vital for the immature athlete who needs some life structure and guidance (and even that environment doesn't guarantee it but it does increase the possibility).

I just saw a story on Sinead O'Connor who made multi-millions of dollars and is now a pauper who lives in a hotel and cannot care for her family any longer. It is so important for these celebrities to not only make the money but they also be mature enough or have advisors they can trust (those are difficult to find when you are rich).

[ShockCrazy]

Partially you are proving my point about proper development. I don't disagree that POB made a lot of money and I don't disagree that Penn seems to be on track to make a lot of money. But does POB still own any of it? Was he mature enough when he made it to "tuck" some away like Ron has or did he have a spending spree and it was gone? I don't know those answers but I have an inkling of what might have happened because of his other immature actions.

So this is the question to answer. How many millions could POB have made if he had Gregg Marshall and company developing his work ethic, decision making, and maturity? The proper NCAA environment is vital for the immature athlete who needs some life structure and guidance (and even that environment doesn't guarantee it but it does increase the possibility).

I just saw a story on Sinead O'Connor who made multi-millions of dollars and is now a pauper who lives in a hotel and cannot care for her family any longer. It is so important for these celebrities to not only make the money but they also be mature enough or have advisors they can trust (those are difficult to find when you are rich).

I don't think staying in college is attributable to responsible financial decisions, it's a mindset. Being 22 instead of 20 isn't going to suddenly make you more responsible. Ron has done well because he has the right mindset, and I fully believe his parents raised him with that mindset, and had he entered the draft after his sophomore year when his stock was highest, he certainly wouldn't be any worse off financially. Now if college for highly talented athletes focused more on financial management, responsible decisions, and all that would encompass their life as a professional athlete, I think it would have a higher rate of success by staying in school, sadly that is not the objective for highly talented athletes.

[shockmonster]

I don't think staying in college is attributable to responsible financial decisions, it's a mindset. Being 22 instead of 20 isn't going to suddenly make you more responsible. Ron has done well because he has the right mindset, and I fully believe his parents raised him with that mindset, and had he entered the draft after his sophomore year when his stock was highest, he certainly wouldn't be any worse off financially. Now if college for highly talented athletes focused more on financial management, responsible decisions, and all that would encompass their life as a professional athlete, I think it would have a higher rate of success by staying in school, sadly that is not the objective for highly talented athletes.

You may be right. There is no way of knowing for sure but I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the financial maturity piece of what I said. Parents most likely have more influence on that part of maturity than coaches. JT Durley does attribute Gregg Marshall to "making him a Man" and that could include maturity of work ethic and other maturity factors. Gregg does see many kids daily who come through the coaches offices and visit with coaches, and the Marshall's who have kids over to their house for visits. While, I'm sure the coaches visits affects the kids in many ways, who knows what they discuss, or how much they "rub off" on the kids in those situations.

However, you totally avoided (maybe not purposefully) my point about Gregg building maturity surrounding "Work Effort". I think that I can safely say that the way our coaches run practices, that work effort is a factor that "rubs off" on the kids. Other work effort influence that Gregg has over the kids is that he requires attendance in class and attendance regarding tutoring sessions. This is something that probably has a strong influence on 18 year old kids who have not grown up in families who have high expectations. WSU under Gregg has a very fine graduation rate on their basketball team with some students being successful that otherwise probably wouldn't have been.

[ShockCrazy]

You may be right. There is no way of knowing for sure but I wouldn't disagree with you regarding the financial maturity piece of what I said. Parents most likely have more influence on that part of maturity than coaches. JT Durley does attribute Gregg Marshall to "making him a Man" and that could include maturity of work ethic and other maturity factors. Gregg does see many kids daily who come through the coaches offices and visit with coaches, and the Marshall's who have kids over to their house for visits. While, I'm sure the coaches visits affects the kids in many ways, who knows what they discuss, or how much they "rub off" on the kids in those situations.

However, you totally avoided (maybe not purposefully) my point about Gregg building maturity surrounding "Work Effort". I think that I can safely say that the way our coaches run practices, that work effort is a factor that "rubs off" on the kids. Other work effort influence that Gregg has over the kids is that he requires attendance in class and attendance regarding tutoring sessions. This is something that probably has a strong influence on 18 year old kids who have not grown up in families who have high expectations. WSU under Gregg has a very fine graduation rate on their basketball team with some students being successful that otherwise probably wouldn't have been.

Certainly I think work effort can rub off, but I think the vast majority of players HCGM brings in already conform or have the desire to conform to that work effort. The only examples I can think of players who have vastly improved their work ethic under HCGM are the aforementioned JT(not a Marshall recruit) and Shaq. Everyone else I can think of came in here prepared to bust ass. Most of our transfers out I can think of aren't effort related, but typically PT related.

[shockmonster]

Certainly I think work effort can rub off, but I think the vast majority of players HCGM brings in already conform or have the desire to conform to that work effort. The only examples I can think of players who have vastly improved their work ethic under HCGM are the aforementioned JT(not a Marshall recruit) and Shaq. Everyone else I can think of came in here prepared to bust ass. Most of our transfers out I can think of aren't effort related, but typically PT related.

From what I've heard regarding Gregg's practices, I think you underestimate them. There are no days off. If you look at his response at Canada last summer, his response was to the referees, but he was very upset at how his team was responding to being hit in the mouth.

[mattdalt]

From what I've heard regarding Gregg's practices, I think you underestimate them. There are no days off. If you look at his response at Canada last summer, his response was to the referees, but he was very upset at how his team was responding to being hit in the mouth.

He was more upset with his team getting "hit" and no calls, then when a guy almost took out Rano's knee, Gregg had seen enough.

[another shocker]

He was more upset with his team getting "hit" and no calls, then when a guy almost took out Rano's knee, Gregg had seen enough.

and didn't rauno sustain a concussion during that game?

yep, hcgm had seen enough.

[WstateU]

From what I've heard regarding Gregg's practices, I think you underestimate them. There are no days off. If you look at his response at Canada last summer, his response was to the referees, but he was very upset at how his team was responding to being hit in the mouth.

He was more upset with his team getting "hit" and no calls, then when a guy almost took out Rano's knee, Gregg had seen enough.

and didn't rauno sustain a concussion during that game?

yep, hcgm had seen enough.

Yep...

[another shocker]

Yep...

marshall got so much flak, nationally, for his blowup. but he had to put.a.stop.to.it. what was happening. i don't know why the national media didn't report what was going on in that game. cheers to gregg marshall for that. he put.a.stop.to.it.

[Kel Varnsen]

So this is the question to answer. How many millions could POB have made if he had Gregg Marshall and company developing his work ethic, decision making, and maturity? The proper NCAA environment is vital for the immature athlete who needs some life structure and guidance (and even that environment doesn't guarantee it but it does increase the possibility).

The answer to your bolded question is ultimately uncertain. Could he have been if he stayed in college a little longer? Perhaps. Neither you nor I have the answer as to why a player with so much potential like POB didn't make it in the league, but attributing it (without much evidence one way or the other, mind you) to the fact that he didn't stay in school long enough is jumping the gun. He got injured his first year and for whatever reason, never made it after that. Ultimately, we'll never know. Some players don't make it because they've reached their ceiling early. Some don't have the work ethic for it. Some physically can't develop the skill set (for example, Zach Brown will never be a good ball handler by NBA standards, let alone even college standards).

The decision to stay or go should be handled on a case-by-case basis. There's no one-size-fits-all approach to it, and there's no more morality in staying in school than there is going to the league. There can definitely be a down side to players going if they're not mature enough (I was vastly different as a freshman in college compared to my senior year), but there can be a huge upside too.

[Aargh]

As I recall there was a scarcity of posts in the draft O'Bryan entered. There were many more the next year. If O'Bryan hadn't declared for the draft when he did, it is possible (even likely) he would never have been drafted.

There is a good possibility that any money O'Bryan got for playing in the NBA, was only available to him if he declared for the draft when he did.