Conner Frankamp is a Shocker

[Veritas]

Forgive me in advance, but do academic scholarships count against the total number of athletic scholarships allowed?

[1972Shocker]

Conner (and his Dad maybe???) have really made this process more difficult on everyone involved with the time of the decision coming at the end of the Class of 2015 recruiting process with the early signing period starting this coming Wednesday.

Many teams have their scholarship commitments for this year and next year full (subject to a last minute change of mind by a verbal commit) and perhaps overflowing as may be the case with Wichita State. Not worried about that being resolved but I don't think 3G was planning on having the Conner Frankamp scenario dropped on his doorstep.

Of course, one of the solutions for Conner is to walk-on and pay his own way over the next 3 semesters. If that is the scenario he has found himself in it would be much cheaper from him to do that at Wichita State then at Colorado or Creighton were he would be paying out-of-state tuition or private tuition rates.

Perhaps he can find someplace he likes that has immediate scholarship openings next year and maybe even this year where he would not have to pay his own way. If the schools he is considering are all in the same or similar boat with full limits of scholarships committed then WSU would seem to have an advantage from an out-of-pocket cost standpoint.

[jocoshock]

Conner (and his Dad maybe???) have really made this process more difficult on everyone involved with the time of the decision coming at the end of the Class of 2015 recruiting process with the early signing period starting this coming Wednesday.

Many teams have their scholarship commitments for this year and next year full (subject to a last minute change of mind by a verbal commit) and perhaps overflowing as may be the case with Wichita State. Not worried about that being resolved but I don't think 3G was planning on having the Conner Frankamp scenario dropped on his doorstep.

Of course, one of the solutions for Conner is to walk-on and pay his own way over the next 3 semesters. If that is the scenario he has found himself in it would be much cheaper from him to do that at Wichita State then at Colorado or Creighton were he would be paying out-of-state tuition or private tuition rates.

Perhaps he can find someplace he likes that has immediate scholarship openings next year and maybe even this year where he would not have to pay his own way. If the schools he is considering are all in the same or similar boat with full limits of scholarships committed then WSU would seem to have an advantage from an out-of-pocket cost standpoint.

If he is coming, he needs to do just what you suggest. Go the Ron Baker route for 3 semesters and be done with it...

[Rlh04d]

You are right, no one knows. But if I ask myself the question, "Would WSU turn down a request by CF and the North High coach to attend the exhibition and meet the team/coaches? I can visualize NO WAY WSU would turn them down. Even if they had no interest.

I agree. But I also have a hard time believing they just showed up on the doorstep and just went "Hey, can we go watch a game?" I have a hard time believing that happens in recruiting.

CF might have contacted WSU first, but I doubt he would be wasting his time if there wasn't interest, and I think HCGM is too blunt to waste his time.

[1972Shocker]

Forgive me in advance, but do academic scholarships count against the total number of athletic scholarships allowed?

I don't believe they do but they have to be legit. I'm sure Cameron Ledford was on an academic scholarship. No question about the legitimacy of that scholarship.

[shockerfan]

You are right, no one knows. But if I ask myself the question, "Would WSU turn down a request by CF and the North High coach to attend the exhibition and meet the team/coaches? I can visualize NO WAY WSU would turn them down. Even if they had no interest.

WSU may well be at the other end of the spectrum and be really pushing to recruit CF.

IMHO, the former is more likely than the latter. But I know nothing. Just not willing to read "interest" into something like a politically prudent move to allow CF and coach to attend.

That is silly. They do not give tickets and bring potential players and parents to the locker room just to be nice and not burn bridges. They don't waste time and resources.

There is definitely interest by WSU. However, Marshall will not let a recruit or parents dictate terms or playing time. Marshall will give them the terms and situation and leave it at that.

The debate here should be will Conner accept those terms or will he go elsewhere. That is the ONLY question here IMHO.

[MoValley John]

I don't believe they do but they have to be legit. I'm sure Cameron Ledford was on an academic scholarship. No question about the legitimacy of that scholarship.

I think just about any scholarship counts against the limit in basketball. The exception might be a scholarship that can be used at any school. Football and basketball are what the NCAA calls "head count" sports. This limits scholarships to a head count of athletes, not an equivalency of athletes. For comparison, Ivy League schools do not award athletic scholarships, but they only have 13 players per team receiving academic scholarships.

At least that is how this topic has been explained to me. If it were any different, Roy Williams and John Calipari would have 10-12 extra kids on academic scholarship.

[MoValley John]

Let me try to explain that a bit better, a walk on in a "head count" sport can receive a Pell grant. They also could receive a scholarship unaffiliated with the school. Say the Rotary Club issued a scholarship with a dollar amount of $15,000 per year. If that scholarship could be used at any school, the athlete could be considered a walk on. If it were a Rotary scholarship that could be used at Wichita State, or if it were a scholarship that could be used at any public school but only in Kansas, that walk on is now considered a scholarship athlete.

[ripemupshocks]

Forgive me in advance, but do academic scholarships count against the total number of athletic scholarships allowed?

I think this came up recently with another potential player. If I remember correctly, the only way a player on academic scholarship would NOT count is if that player had never been recruited.

[pinstripers]

I'm not sure what is being referred to by you and by others as "HCGM is recruiting CF." Did WSU respond to CF's request to attend the game and meet the coaches/team? Apparently, that is the case. Was it an official visit? Doubt it. Does this indicate WSU's level of interest? Absolutely not. All this could have been done as a courtesy to the North High coach. All this could have been done solely not to burn bridges. This cost WSU nothing to do, except for four tickets to an exhibition game that were not being used by other potential recruits.

Does this indicate CF's level of interest. Perhaps, but it could indeed be a relatively low interest or it could be a sincere and very high interest, CF and family know that.

My point is that simply because WSU did a politically correct thing by entertaining CF and family does not necessarily indicate any level of interest above the lowest level. It might, but it doesn't necessarily.

dunno if they still have season tickets and their own place to sit, but they always have had before

[im4wsu]

That is silly. They do not give tickets and bring potential players and parents to the locker room just to be nice and not burn bridges. They don't waste time and resources.

There is definitely interest by WSU. However, Marshall will not let a recruit or parents dictate terms or playing time. Marshall will give them the terms and situation and leave it at that.

The debate here should be will Conner accept those terms or will he go elsewhere. That is the ONLY question here IMHO.

Recruiting is about relationships and relationships with HS coaches. Last I looked, North was a high school and a local one. Not a bridge a smart coach would wish to burn. Just sayin' maybe it's not so silly, but to each his own

[Aargh]

nm

[1972Shocker]

I think just about any scholarship counts against the limit in basketball. The exception might be a scholarship that can be used at any school. Football and basketball are what the NCAA calls "head count" sports. This limits scholarships to a head count of athletes, not an equivalency of athletes. For comparison, Ivy League schools do not award athletic scholarships, but they only have 13 players per team receiving academic scholarships.

At least that is how this topic has been explained to me. If it were any different, Roy Williams and John Calipari would have 10-12 extra kids on academic scholarship.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D115.pdf

15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid; or
(b) Educational Expenses—Olympic Committee/National Governing Body. A student-athlete who receives educational expenses awarded by the U.S. Olympic Committee or a U.S. national governing body (or, for international student-athletes, expenses awarded by the equivalent organization of a foreign country) per Bylaw 15.2.6.4 shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the aid.
15.5.1.1 Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports. (Revised: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93, 1/11/94, 6/20/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 1/18/14 effective 8/1/14)
15.5.1.1.1 Exception—Receipt of Institutional Academic Aid Only. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and whose only source of institutional financial aid is academic aid based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying 198
institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, may compete without counting in the institution’s financial aid team limits, provided he or she has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution. (Adopted: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

As @ripemupshocks pointed out whether or not the player was recruited is an important distinction. However, even if a player was not recruited if he receives financial aid based in any degree on athletic ability he/she would be a counter.

[MoValley John]

http://www.ncaapublications.com/prod...loads/D115.pdf


15.5.1 Counters. A student-athlete shall be a counter and included in the maximum awards limitations set forth in this bylaw under the following conditions: (Revised: 6/10/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) Athletics Aid. A student-athlete who receives financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the financial aid; or
(b) Educational Expenses—Olympic Committee/National Governing Body. A student-athlete who receives educational expenses awarded by the U.S. Olympic Committee or a U.S. national governing body (or, for international student-athletes, expenses awarded by the equivalent organization of a foreign country) per Bylaw 15.2.6.4 shall become a counter for the year during which the student-athlete receives the aid.
15.5.1.1 Football or Basketball, Varsity Competition. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and who receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.2) granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability does not have to be counted until the student-athlete engages in varsity intercollegiate competition (as opposed to freshman, B-team, subvarsity, intramural or club competition) in those sports. (Revised: 1/16/93 effective 8/1/93, 1/11/94, 6/20/04, 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, 1/18/14 effective 8/1/14)
15.5.1.1.1 Exception—Receipt of Institutional Academic Aid Only. In football or basketball, a student-athlete who was recruited (see Bylaw 15.02.8) by the awarding institution and whose only source of institutional financial aid is academic aid based solely on the recipient’s academic record at the certifying 198
institution, awarded independently of athletics interests and in amounts consistent with the pattern of all such awards made by the institution, may compete without counting in the institution’s financial aid team limits, provided he or she has completed at least one academic year of full-time enrollment at the certifying institution and has achieved a cumulative grade-point average of at least 3.000 (on a 4.000 scale) at the certifying institution. (Adopted: 10/27/05 effective 8/1/06, Revised: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)

As @ripemupshocks: pointed out whether or not the player was recruited is an important distinction. However, even if a player was not recruited if he receives financial aid based in any degree on athletic ability he/she would be a counter.

That is what I was looking for. I couldn't remember exactly how it went. There are very, very few student athletes that qualify as walk based on this rule. The "independent of athletics" hurdle can be very difficult to clear in most instances.

It is interesting that a kid like Frankamp could receive an academic scholarship but it would count against him until he plays. So he could get an academic scholarship, walk on at Wichita State in the second semester, and he wouldn't count as a scholarship athlete until second semester next year.

[WuDrWu]

I think the timing has a lot more to do with KU than the Frankamps. Also, Marty is getting grief here I think is over the top. Every kid's dad is tough to deal with, Marty is just local and we see him more.

I wouldn't mind seeing the criticism directed at him dialed back a bit.