Paul Mills Not Hot Seat

[Stickboy46]

Oh, so the assistant that took over had to rebuild from the ground up. Come on dude. I know you hate mills but you aren’t that dumb.

Did he have to replace the same amount as Mills... Yes. I know you are trying to make excuses for Mills, but you aren't that dumb

[Stickboy46]

Abidde is light years ahead? I'm hoping we can recruit above him going forward.

Yea he looked better at the beginning of the year but the appears to be only because of level of competition. Recently he's looked no better than last year.

Ballard now... He's definitely improved a ton

[shock]

Did he have to replace the same amount as Mills... Yes. I know you are trying to make excuses for Mills, but you aren't that dumb

A building a program is wayyyy more than putting talent on the court.

Just curious, do you have upper level management experience where you shape the entire department?

[Stickboy46]

A building a program is wayyyy more than putting talent on the court.

Just curious, do you have upper level management experience where you shape the entire department?

I'm not going down your goal post move because it's irrelevant to the discussion.

And yes building a program is important.

Building a program with no talent is still going to produce crappy results.

You can win (to an extent) with elite talent and poor coaching (see Penny)

it's much harder to win without talent even with good coaching.

Ideal is above average talent and elite coaching (ie Marshall)

We will have to see where Mills ultimately lies but right now it's below average on both

[ShockTalk]

What I don't know (fill us in if anyone does) is that the almost 3-week difference between hiring Mills and Hodge can make a lot of difference, along with Hodge moving up from top assistant to head coach. He had been with McCasland as Assistant Head Coach for 6 years and 5 of those at North Texas. I'm sure he was already involved with some (maybe all) future players before McCasland moved on. Also, the likelihood of players being able to find another (better) landing spot was going to be less due to the 3 weeks later (especially depending on how long they may have had already been committed to North Texas).

Also, Hodge wasn't like Brown's situation on coaching experience. Brown had been with Marshall for a number of years, but mostly became head assistant almost by default. Those 6 years as Head Assistant with McCasland were important for Hodges' preparation for being Head Coach and the new recruits knew it. How many players may Hodge have been active in their recruitment?

I think Hodge had several different advantages that Mills did not. Mills only advantage was his head coaching experience.

[ShockerFever]

I wonder when Stickboy began being a WSU fan. Might explain a lot of things.

[shock]

I'm not going down your goal post move because it's irrelevant to the discussion.

And yes building a program is important.

Building a program with no talent is still going to produce crappy results.

You can win (to an extent) with elite talent and poor coaching (see Penny)

it's much harder to win without talent even with good coaching.

Ideal is above average talent and elite coaching (ie Marshall)

We will have to see where Mills ultimately lies but right now it's below average on both

I am not and have not moved the goal posts. I have said from the beginning that this season was going to be excruciating.

If you have never torn a dept down and rebuilt it, it can be incredibly difficult. For the past 6 years I’ve been involved in tearing an entire company down to the studs and rebuilding it. I took a break a few years ago for about 14 months during Covid (for those who know some about my job history). For the past two years I’ve been in every interview from C suite to janitorial, and for the last 6 months I have taken control of an entire department and rebuilt it from the ground up. I have seen it all, from the rot that festers and what it takes to rip it out, to people who turn a burner on a propane stove without lighting it after they’ve been fired and have to move out of company housing. Luckily, and through careful separation of wheat and chaff, we now have a very stable company that is growing and expanding healthily and fiscally responsible again.

Here are the challenges Mills is facing, some of which are unique and some of which every coach deals with:
Brand new athletic dept leadership;
Peers (head coaches) who are also brand new to WSU;
A university President who is relatively new;
leadership and an athletic dept without an established culture;
a fan base that by and large was kicked to the curb by previous leadership and hasn’t come back to the table;
Donors who have been spurned and are slow to re-engage;
An NIL that was a year late in getting off the ground and appears to be lackluster at best;
taking over a program that had a supreme lack of institutional control;
recruiting players to a place that players don’t want to come to, for prices well below average;
coaching player s who don’t want to be coached.
And much much more

It takes time to earn trust of good players. Mills didn’t have time, so he got desperate players. Expecting him to build relationships with recruits in 3 weeks without being able to buy his way in is crazy. He is not Penny. Penny got high level recruits because of who he is and who he knows. Penny got the players he has now because he has no scruples. Paul Mills is not ever going to ever be on that level as a recruiter.

UNT has a stable athletic dept, stable donors, and turned over a stable program to a hire from within who was believed img by players and recruits alike. Regardless of what he had to replace on the court, the situation was already years ahead of where WSU was when mills took the job.

Penny stepped in after Tubby and used his notoriety coupled with his lack of scruples and brought in big name after big name. This is happening less and less because now he is on a more even playing field with paying players and has shown that he absolutely cannot develop players, and he is now getting highly talented players with highly questionable morals. The U of M ship is sinking.

The reason people are saying give mills time is because they recognize the challenges he has that few other coaches and programs have. He has been tasked with everything from building the building to buying the furniture, much less putting (quality) butts in the bench. This program was razed. If he was stepping in after GM retired, and was handed the key to the Ferarri, sure, he would be expected to win from day 1. That’s not the case. The car Mills got was wrecked and stripped and burned to the ground. Rebuilding that takes time. That is the reality.

[Stickboy46]

I am not and have not moved the goal posts. I have said from the beginning that this season was going to be excruciating.

If you have never torn a dept down and rebuilt it, it can be incredibly difficult. For the past 6 years I’ve been involved in tearing an entire company down to the studs and rebuilding it. I took a break a few years ago for about 14 months during Covid (for those who know some about my job history). For the past two years I’ve been in every interview from C suite to janitorial, and for the last 6 months I have taken control of an entire department and rebuilt it from the ground up. I have seen it all, from the rot that festers and what it takes to rip it out, to people who turn a burner on a propane stove without lighting it after they’ve been fired and have to move out of company housing. Luckily, and through careful separation of wheat and chaff, we now have a very stable company that is growing and expanding healthily and fiscally responsible again.

Here are the challenges Mills is facing, some of which are unique and some of which every coach deals with:
Brand new athletic dept leadership;
Peers (head coaches) who are also brand new to WSU;
A university President who is relatively new;
leadership and an athletic dept without an established culture;
a fan base that by and large was kicked to the curb by previous leadership and hasn’t come back to the table;
Donors who have been spurned and are slow to re-engage;
An NIL that was a year late in getting off the ground and appears to be lackluster at best;
taking over a program that had a supreme lack of institutional control;
recruiting players to a place that players don’t want to come to, for prices well below average;
coaching player s who don’t want to be coached.
And much much more

It takes time to earn trust of good players. Mills didn’t have time, so he got desperate players. Expecting him to build relationships with recruits in 3 weeks without being able to buy his way in is crazy. He is not Penny. Penny got high level recruits because of who he is and who he knows. Penny got the players he has now because he has no scruples. Paul Mills is not ever going to ever be on that level as a recruiter.

UNT has a stable athletic dept, stable donors, and turned over a stable program to a hire from within who was believed img by players and recruits alike. Regardless of what he had to replace on the court, the situation was already years ahead of where WSU was when mills took the job.

Penny stepped in after Tubby and used his notoriety coupled with his lack of scruples and brought in big name after big name. This is happening less and less because now he is on a more even playing field with paying players and has shown that he absolutely cannot develop players, and he is now getting highly talented players with highly questionable morals. The U of M ship is sinking.

The reason people are saying give mills time is because they recognize the challenges he has that few other coaches and programs have. He has been tasked with everything from building the building to buying the furniture, much less putting (quality) butts in the bench. This program was razed. If he was stepping in after GM retired, and was handed the key to the Ferarri, sure, he would be expected to win from day 1. That’s not the case. The car Mills got was wrecked and stripped and burned to the ground. Rebuilding that takes time. That is the reality.

The vast majority of what you just said is not "reality" it's a dramatization of putting all the blame on other people besides Mills.

WSU fan support while down by our standards is still better than the vast majority of colleges.

U of M ship is sinking?? Listen, I hate them as much as anyone else but let's stick to reality. They have the best team Penny has had since he's been there. They have been trending nothing but up since he got there. They should be better than they are but talent can overcome a lot.

Mills fell on his face to start, both in recruiting and so far in game results. He has realistically 3 years to figure it out but let's not sugar coat this and act like what we've seen so far is acceptable

There are no longer 3-4 year rebuilds in the new age. It's constant 1-2 year rebuilds over and over. You are going to turn over your roster faster than ever. If you need 3-4 years, you are screwed because you are going to be starting over every year or two that you have down years.

[shock]

The vast majority of what you just said is not "reality" it's a dramatization of putting all the blame on other people besides Mills.

WSU fan support while down by our standards is still better than the vast majority of colleges.

U of M ship is sinking?? Listen, I hate them as much as anyone else but let's stick to reality. They have the best team Penny has had since he's been there. They have been trending nothing but up since he got there. They should be better than they are but talent can overcome a lot.

Mills fell on his face to start, both in recruiting and so far in game results. He has realistically 3 years to figure it out but let's not sugar coat this and act like what we've seen so far is acceptable

There are no longer 3-4 year rebuilds in the new age. It's constant 1-2 year rebuilds over and over. You are going to turn over your roster faster than ever. If you need 3-4 years, you are screwed because you are going to be starting over every year or two that you have down years.

I haven’t ever said what he has done is acceptable. I’ve just said I understand and see the whole situation. You do not.
The whole athletic dept is being rebuilt. You do realize that right?

[Stickboy46]

I haven’t ever said what he has done is acceptable. I’ve just said I understand and see the whole situation. You do not.

We both see the situation. You make excuses and I call it out. That's the only difference.

[shock]

We both see the situation. You make excuses and I call it out. That's the only difference.

No. I understand, and I understand what it takes to be successful. What pro team in what sport turned over ownership, GM, and coach in 18 months and was in the playoffs in the first year? What college team turned over a president, athletic director, and coach and made it to the NCAA tournament the first year? If you can produce a single program in the last 5 years, I’ll donate $100 to St Jude’s, who happened to send me a solicitation today.

[Atxshoxfan]

If HCPM can instill some fight in the team after this losing streak, It will be a big positive in my opinion, regardless of wins and loses.

Same thing if he can instill more team play with ball movement rather than guys trying to get their stats.

With this roster, I don't think wins and loses is any indication of his coaching ability.

Sark went 5 and 7 his first year at UT. Folks were livid. But since....well, he seems to be doing good now.

[Stickboy46]

No. I understand, and I understand what it takes to be successful. What pro team in what sport turned over ownership, GM, and coach in 18 months and was in the playoffs in the first year? What college team turned over a president, athletic director, and coach and made it to the NCAA tournament the first year? If you can produce a single program in the last 5 years, I’ll donate $100 to St Jude’s, who happened to send me a solicitation today.

Sigh... The excuse train is strong. Not gonna go out and search for a completely unrelated scenario because you want to go off on a tangent with excuses. President has minimal to no effect here. AD has a little more but he's not out recruiting. This falls on the coach and coaching staff.

Results are unacceptable period. No excuses matter. We need to stop making them for him. Back to your "business" example. It doesn't matter how much ground work, culture or whatever you do. If you don't turn a profit.. You failed.

This kinda shows what I see about us rapidly getting worse through the year too.

https://haslametrics.com/ratings2.php?yr=&tid=5471

You can see the graph on the page showing our rapid downward trend in ranking. Also we are at 353 out 362 in "Momentum" which measures the last 4-8 performances compared to the rest of the season. So out last month or so has been one of the worst in D1

[Stickboy46]

If HCPM can instill some fight in the team after this losing streak, It will be a big positive in my opinion, regardless of wins and loses.

Same thing if he can instill more team play with ball movement rather than guys trying to get their stats.

With this roster, I don't think wins and loses is any indication of his coaching ability.

Sark went 5 and 7 his first year at UT. Folks were livid. But since....well, he seems to be doing good now.

The wins will be tough yes. But right now the problem is they appear to be getting worse as the year goes along. We keep hearing "the players aren't doing what they are supposed to". Well that's a coaching problem. It means he's lost control of the team. If players are hunting stats and not following the game plan but they keep getting played... That's a coaching problem. We have players on the bench burning eligibility but aren't playing. They can be used to pull players for not following the gameplan, but they aren't.. So it really means that what we are seeing is the gameplan.

[MoValley John]

I have a question. Does anyone know how much each Shocker player gets for NIL? And does anyone know what other schools in the American offer and where do the Shockers fit?

I have rough numbers for Creighton and UNO. Its very interesting because each Bluejay gets $150,000 plus the use of a car, while the entire Maverick team splits $100,000 with no car. Creighton fits in the top third of the BE in NIL, while UNO is top half of the Summit. Both teams NIL distribution seems to correlate closely to how they finish in their respective conferences.

It probably would help to know NIL at WSU and know how it fits in with the rest of the American as A benchmark to how the coaching staff is doing.