WSU Versus Dayton Predictions and Pregame Discussions

[SHOCKvalue]

Archie has only been a head coach 5 years. Gregg has been at WSU twice as long as that and I believe was a HC prior to taking the WSU job. He will of course have more chips. But compare the first 5 years of both careers and Archie has done more. I think the same can be said between Sean and Archie in the first 5 years. It's especially a critical factor in building recruiting pipelines and I think we can all agree getting talent that has huge upside is critical at a mid-major.

But my dad was a football coach and I have a brother with 3 Super Bowl rings, so I know in the field of athletics it all comes down to what your results are. Archie is ahead of Gregg at the 5 year mark. The potential to be better is just opportunity right now. Gregg has actual been there, done that credentials that Archie is still working towards which is why I feel Gregg ranks higher on those lists tucked in AD desk drawers from all the Top 15 programs in the country that they pull out if they need to replace a HC. Both of these talented coaches are on all those lists. Archie is a tough-nose competitor at heart. I know he is going to take one heck of a swing at putting together a game plan to out coach and beat Gregg. He already mentioned Gregg and how he's one of the best coaches in the post-selection show interview. It's like the game within the game.

Also, I think both coaches are being paid well. Archie is under Gregg, but again he hasn't been at UD as long. We too are trying to make it as hard as possible for any school to pick him off.

Comparing what one coach was able to do in his first five years at a low-major, with what another was able to do in his first five years at a top mid-major, is borderline absurd.

[ShockerFever]

I forgot what we're discussing since the goal posts seem to shift at every turning second. Is it who's the better coach overall, who's the better coach at year 5, who's the better coach in the 2nd month of the third year?

Is Miller a better coach than Coach K because he's done more by year 5 than he did?

[Stickboy46]

Comparing what one coach was able to do in his first five years at a low-major, with what another was able to do in his first five years at a top mid-major, is borderline absurd.

Archie took over a Mid Major coming off a NCAA bid and 2 NIT bids.

Gregg took over a team that finished 8-10 the year before in the MVC.

By year 5 Archie had an Elite 8 from an 11 seed, Gregg had a 27-6 5 seed. I'll concede that edge to Archie if the Elite 8 was done with his recruits.

This is year 6 for Archie. Gregg had a Final Four in year 6.

So in order for Archie to "match up" to Gregg, he needs to get to the Final Four this year, Go undefeated next year, get a 1 seed and National Coach of the Year, Then Go to a Sweet 16 again the year after.

Guess we will see

[WstateU]

I forgot what we're discussing since the goal posts seem to shift at every turning second. Is it who's the better coach overall, who's the better coach at year 5, who's the better coach in the 2nd month of the third year?

Is Miller a better coach than Coach K because he's done more by year 5 than he did?

[Cdizzle]

This is the best. Needs to be every 8th post in the bracketology thread next season.

[Flyer Visitor]

I forgot what we're discussing since the goal posts seem to shift at every turning second. Is it who's the better coach overall, who's the better coach at year 5, who's the better coach in the 2nd month of the third year?

Is Miller a better coach than Coach K because he's done more by year 5 than he did?

Im totally confused since I'm not the one saying Millers credentials sitting here today are a better body of work than Marshall's. I'm not the one who listed Greggs 15-20 years of HC accomplishments vs Archie's 5 years. That's not apples to apples. It's like our redshirt freshman Greek that a couple people have asked about. His NBA superstar bother says he can be better. Will he be? Only time will tell. I hope your coach remains ahead of our because I don't want Archie to leave.

[Stickboy46]

Im totally confused since I'm not the one saying Millers credentials sitting here today are a better body of work than Marshall's. I'm not the one who listed Greggs 15-20 years of HC accomplishments vs Archie's 5 years. That's not apples to apples. It's like our redshirt freshman Greek that a couple people have asked about. His NBA superstar bother says he can be better. Will he be? Only time will tell. I hope your coach remains ahead of our because I don't want Archie to leave.

You just like to cherry pick everything. Let's just look at first 5 years, let's look at stats from only tourney team games etc. How about inclusive comparisons, whole seasons, careers etc.

[Stickboy46]

You are at an opposing teams message board. Do you really think people here are going to think your coach is better than ours? This conversation is stupid.

The conversation and insinuation is stupid even if it happened on their board.

[DwShock]

I know some like him and some don't but Mark Adams posted this about the game on his Facebook page. Sorry it's so long but he gives good matchup information.

"OH BLEEP! My Take on #10 Wichita State vs #7 Dayton

That was my reaction Sunday when I was in New Orleans and saw the match up of #10 Wichita State vs #7 Dayton during the NCAA Selection Show on CBS.

Most of you know I live just south of Dayton, OH and started my broadcast career with these same Flyers back in 1997. I owe a lot to the Flyer Fanatics for embracing me and giving me the platform to build what is now a career.

Then along came ESPN and I shared with my boss that one day I wanted to earn a seat at the table as the voice on the Missouri valley Conference which was my favorite conference as a kid. That started back in the early/mid 2000’s and today I basically live in Wichita during the winter. Not really but the Shocker fan base and The Valley as a whole sort of adopted me.

When I walk in to the UD Arena (The Dayton Decibel Dungeon) I am welcomed like family. When I walk into Koch Arena (The Roundhouse) I am welcomed like family.

As I pondered the match up, my first reaction was to avoid talking about it. I didn’t want to disappoint either group of fans/friends who have helped me so much during my career. Then I decided to say the heck with that! These fans have welcomed me into their homes for years and expect me to give them the truth just as I have done my entire career. I have tremendous respect for both programs and both fan bases. The coaching staffs are both made up of friends off the court along with countless other college basketball staffs around the country who never hold it against me when I simply state the truth, good or bad.

While I certainly know Gregg Marshall better and count him as a friend off the court, I wildly admire and respect Archie Miller as well for delivering the greatest run in UD history as the Flyers were my boyhood heroes! I still get excited whenever I hear from or see Don May just like I was giddy when I met Dave Stallworth in Wichita a few years back.

OK, with all of that said it is time to turn on my professional analyst persona and tell you exactly what I think.

There are three match ups that are critical in this game. The first is at the point guard position, then the wingmen and then the post match up.

Scoochie Smith is a leader, a winner, a senior. He is one of my favorite Flyers ever! Scoochie has the unique ability to make winning plays not just baskets. His decision making at crunch time is reminiscent of another point guard who played for the Shockers, Fred Van Vleet. Scoochie makes big shots, helps others make big shots, steals it at big times and just WINS! His numbers are good not great but he is one of the three best late game decision makers in America.

Smith with match up with Landry Shamet who is a banner hanger as a freshman. He LED the Shockers to a regular season MVC Co-Championship and then won Arch Madness to gain the bid. Shamet is a SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP PLAYER! When the opposition is on a run and the arena rises as one every team needs a sit down and shut up guy. Shamet is that guy! He is mature beyond his years and this match up with Smith will be one of the highlights of the NCAA tournament for me.

Charles Cooke for the Flyers can score but he is also a much improved defender and more complete player than a year ago. He is rangy, can bang a three ball, dribble drive and accept the bump and finish. He has become a willing rebounder and is dynamite in transition.

Markis McDuffie for the Shockers can score but he is also a much improved defender and a more complete player. He is rangy, can bang a three ball, dribble drive and accept the bump and finish. He has become a willing rebounder and is dynamite in transition.

How’s that for breaking those two down?

Josh Cunningham is just now getting into game condition but probably not completely 100%. The Flyers will have Cunningham and a capable bench of differentiated bigs to fill the minutes gap. Cunningham is a transfer from Bradley who now goes back to the future and takes on his former nemesis from The Valley.

Cunningham will face a new and improved Shaq Morris from their earlier playing days. Morris makes the Shockers elite when he is engaged, motivated and physical. He is a big body inside but also an athletic body. Shaq is big, strong, fast enough and athletic enough to be dominant at times. As he goes so go these Shockers against other elite teams like Dayton and other P5/Big East opponents.

There are two x-factors in this game. Dayton has more experience while Wichita State has more depth. The Shockers do not lead in that category by a lot but the Shockers are deeper, that is a fact.

I would hire either coach for ANY job in America. So that is an intriguing ante in this game.

So here we go. My gut tells me IF Shaq Morris brings it and I believe he will that may be the deciding factor. This game feels like it will come down to a rebound, an offensive stick back to win or a defensive rebound to seal the win. The team most likely to get that rebound is Wichita State.

I trust you ALL will understand that it is my job to be impartial and tell you the truth. I have done that in this business for years and it has served me well and I trust I have served you well at every turn."

[Flyer Visitor]

You just like to cherry pick everything. Let's just look at first 5 years, let's look at stats from only tourney team games etc. How about inclusive comparisons, whole seasons, careers etc.

I'm laughing at this. On the stat discussion the push back was you have to have a bigger sample for the comparison to be valid. On the coach discussion it's ok to take a small sample of 5 years and compare it to a large sample of around 20 years (sorry I didn't look up the exact number here, so don't get all hyped up if it's only 18), and accept the comparison as valid, even when the samples are not even close to the same. And all done to what? Dispute my comment that Greggs credentials are better than Archie's right now?

[asiseeit]

Not bad but I think ZB will be on scootchie

[Flyer Visitor]

You are at an opposing teams message board. Do you really think people here are going to think your coach is better than ours? This conversation is stupid.

Seriously...did you even read my posts? I said your coach's credentials were better than mine.

[ShockerFever]

Im totally confused since I'm not the one saying Millers credentials sitting here today are a better body of work than Marshall's. I'm not the one who listed Greggs 15-20 years of HC accomplishments vs Archie's 5 years. That's not apples to apples. It's like our redshirt freshman Greek that a couple people have asked about. His NBA superstar bother says he can be better. Will he be? Only time will tell. I hope your coach remains ahead of our because I don't want Archie to leave.

You were the one who brought up the irrelevant time period discussion when discussing whose coach is better. By your logic, coaches are only comparable if they've coached the EXACT same of years of basketball, which of course is ludicrous. It's not Marshall's fault that Miller is younger than him. I mean, seriously?

You're trying to prop up your guy, which is fine, but there's no need to twist things up when doing so. It comes off as extremely reaching.

[WuDrWu]

It's like our redshirt freshman Greek that a couple people have asked about. His NBA superstar bother says he can be better. Will he be? Only time will tell.

@ShockerFever: this comment sounds oddly familiar to another fan base........


To be clear, I LOVE having fans of other schools here. UD fans have been gracious and engaging and I wish we competed with more fans like the ones that have shown up here.

LOVE to play these guys every season.

[another shocker]

after two straight losses, veteran team dayton gets a new lease on life, a breath of fresh air.. an ncaa tournament game closer to dayton in which they are a seven-seed underdog to a ten-seed wichita state. they are going to be like wild horses let loose from a pen into the open.. they are bringing it.

can wichita state overcame dayton's best?