Conference Shake Up 2.0

[SubGod22]

Would the B12 be interested in trying to be like the Big East and be huge but without some football playing members? Not sure that would be enough to hold the conference together though. Guess it depends on how well it did. How many schools are in the BE now? And how many play FBS football? I'll look into it when I return to work if nobody has the numbers.

[SubGod22]

BE Member - Football
Cincinnati - Yes
UConn - Yes
DePaul - No
Georgetown - No*
Louisville - Yes
Marquette - No
Notre Dame - No*
Pittsburgh - Yes
Providence - No
Rutgers - Yes
St. Johns - No
Seton Hall - No
South Florida -Yes
Syracuse - Yes
Villanova - No*
West Virginia - Yes
TCU - Yes - 2012

*plays football outside of BE

That's currently 16 members (17 w/TCU) and 8 (9) that play football. So basically half. Assuming that aTm bolts and Mizzou finds another home (since they seem to want one so bad), that would leave the Big 12 with 8 and they all play football. What if they went to 10 or 12 in football and another 4 or so that don't play FBS football or don't have football at all? Would something like the following work?

Texas - Yes
Kansas - Yes
K. State - Yes
Iowa State - Yes
0klahoma - Yes
O. State - Yes
Baylor - Yes
Tech - Yes

Would a group of the following possibly make it an attractive conference?

Tulsa - Yes (fairly decent programs)
Houston - Yes (great market. Potential?)
Wichita State - No (quality basketball)
Creighton - No (quality basketball)
Colorado State - Yes (Does a Colorado presence matter? OK programs)
Bradley - No (Potential and Chicago area)
SMU - Yes (it's in Texas)
Rice - Yes (See SMU + academics)
Tulane - Yes (New Orleans?)
Saint Louis - No (STL market. Academics)
Memphis - Yes (top basketball program)
Butler - No (basketball)
UAB - Yes (decent programs)
Arkansas - Yes (obvious reasons. There's always talk...)
Air Force - Yes (OK programs)
TCU - Yes (may be too late for that play)
Xavier - No (decent program)
Dayton - No (see Xavier. They'll stick together)

This could expand the footprint of the conference a little. Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisianna, Tennessee, Missouri, Colorado, Nebraska, Illinois, Indiana, Alabama, Arkansas and Ohio could all be in play.

I have too much fun with this stuff. I'll start comparing schools in a bit.

[SubGod22]

School - Enrollment (all) - Endowment - avg. attendance basketball - football

Texas - 51,600 - 7.2 billion - 13,669 - 100,654
Kansas - 30,000 - 1 billion - 16,436 - 44,851
K. State - 23,600 - 277.6 million - 12,652 - 49,816
Iowa State - 28,700 - 452.2 million - 12,110 - 45,395
0klahoma - 30,300 - 968.4 million - 8,563 - 84,738
O. State - 23,500 - 239 million - 10,447 - 50,812
Baylor - 14,800 - 872 million - 6,994 - 40,043
Tech - 31,600 - 775..2 million - 8,513 - 57,108

Tulsa - 4,200 - 646.7 million - 5,676 - 20,379
Houston - 38,800 - 553 million - 3,281 - 31,728
Wichita State - 14,800 - 170.1 million - 10,428 - DNP
Creighton - 7,400 - 317 million - 13,507 - DNP
Colorado St. - 25,800 - 398.9 million - 4,879 - 22,400
Bradley - 6,100 - 198.5 million - 8,447 - DNP
SMU - 12,000 - 1.4 billion - 1,970 - 23,515
Rice - 5,800 - 4.1 billion - 1,838 - 25,571
Tulane - 12,600 - 888.5 million - 1,843 - 23,220
St. Louis - 16,300 - 825 million - 6,299 - DNP
Memphis - 23,000 - 180.1 million - 16,768 - 23,918
Butler - 4,500 - 128 million - 7,178 - *3,205
UAB - 17,500 - 327.4 million - 5,167 - 18,360
Arkansas - 21,400 - 983.8 million - 11,884 - 68,932
Air Force - 4,400 - 23.7 million - 2,147 - 40,093
TCU - 9,100 - 1.2 billion - 4,285 - 42,466
Xavier - 7,000 - 101 million - 10,098 - DNP
Dayton - 10,600 - 346.6 million - 12,567 - *3,286

I don't know what any of this means. But some of you like numbers.

[ABC]

Endowment info is interesting, though I don't know what impact it has an conference changes.

I am suprised of the small endowment sizes of the following:

K-State
Wichita State
Xavier

[SubGod22]

Endowment info is interesting, though I don't know what impact it has an conference changes.

I am suprised of the small endowment sizes of the following:

K-State
Wichita State
Xavier

I have no idea but have seen it thrown around so I put it in.

[SubGod22]

KSU sounds like they want start being proactive in keeping the Big 12 together for they know they're screwed without it.

"It would be foolish for the Big 12 Conference not to do some contingency planning," Schulz said in an interview with The Eagle.

"That's why I think we're pushing hard to keep A&M, but we're really looking at as if they decide to depart, who do we want to add? I look at those as parallel, not, 'Well, we're going to wait until we hear from A&M and then look at what to do next.' We really feel like we need to be ready to go."

Should Texas A&M defect from the Big 12, presidents and athletic directors from the conference's other nine schools have told Schulz they plan to look at adding teams that will return the Big 12 to a 10-or 12-team league.

"That is the clear direction that the board of directors wants to move in," Schulz said. "The chances of seeing a nine-member Big 12 for any length of time are pretty small."

[SubGod22]

School - Enrollment (all) - Endowment - avg. attendance basketball - football

Texas - 51,600 - 7.2 billion - 13,669 - 100,654
Kansas - 30,000 - 1 billion - 16,436 - 44,851
K. State - 23,600 - 277.6 million - 12,652 - 49,816
Iowa State - 28,700 - 452.2 million - 12,110 - 45,395
0klahoma - 30,300 - 968.4 million - 8,563 - 84,738
O. State - 23,500 - 239 million - 10,447 - 50,812
Baylor - 14,800 - 872 million - 6,994 - 40,043
Tech - 31,600 - 775..2 million - 8,513 - 57,108

Tulsa - 4,200 - 646.7 million - 5,676 - 20,379
Houston - 38,800 - 553 million - 3,281 - 31,728
Wichita State - 14,800 - 170.1 million - 10,428 - DNP
Creighton - 7,400 - 317 million - 13,507 - DNP
Colorado St. - 25,800 - 398.9 million - 4,879 - 22,400
Bradley - 6,100 - 198.5 million - 8,447 - DNP
SMU - 12,000 - 1.4 billion - 1,970 - 23,515
Rice - 5,800 - 4.1 billion - 1,838 - 25,571
Tulane - 12,600 - 888.5 million - 1,843 - 23,220
St. Louis - 16,300 - 825 million - 6,299 - DNP
Memphis - 23,000 - 180.1 million - 16,768 - 23,918
Butler - 4,500 - 128 million - 7,178 - *3,205
UAB - 17,500 - 327.4 million - 5,167 - 18,360
Arkansas - 21,400 - 983.8 million - 11,884 - 68,932
Air Force - 4,400 - 23.7 million - 2,147 - 40,093
TCU - 9,100 - 1.2 billion - 4,285 - 42,466
Xavier - 7,000 - 101 million - 10,098 - DNP
Dayton - 10,600 - 346.6 million - 12,567 - *3,286

I don't know what any of this means. But some of you like numbers.

If I'm given the choice of adding 8 teams to the 8 members I have staying, it would be Arkansas, Memphis, Tulsa, Wichita State, Creighton, Butler, Xavier and Dayton. That would make 11 football schools which may not work. If you couldn't get Arkansas to join, maybe you go with 10 and add SLU.

North = Creighton, Kansas, KSU, Butler, Xavier, Dayton, Iowa State, Memphis

South = Tulsa, Arkansas, 0U, OSU, Texas, Tech, Baylor, Wichita State

You could flip Memphis and WSU. I was trying to help out Butler, Xavier and Dayton. Or if Arkansas were replaced with SLU, they'd go to the North and Memphis would move to the South. This would be basketball only, as I don't think you can really do football divisions with less than 12.

I'm bored.

[_kai_]

Why in the world would Arkansas leave the best conference in the entire country? You can scratch Arkansas off the list.

[SubGod22]

Why in the world would Arkansas leave the best conference in the entire country? You can scratch Arkansas off the list.

That's always my thought too. But whenever this talk comes up, Arkansas is always mentioned. I've heard that they're not completely pleased with the SEC but I'm not sure they'd be happy with Texas either. But they're a school that the Big 12 would most definitely approach.

[_kai_]

Why in the world would Arkansas leave the best conference in the entire country? You can scratch Arkansas off the list.

That's always my thought too. But whenever this talk comes up, Arkansas is always mentioned. I've heard that they're not completely pleased with the SEC but I'm not sure they'd be happy with Texas either. But they're a school that the Big 12 would most definitely approach.

I think its the geographical location that its the farthest west team paired with LSU. Also the fact that Arkansas was part of the old Southwest Conference makes people suggest they'd be an option to join Texas. I really don't think financially Arkansas would ever leave the SEC. I don't think the risk/reward is high enough for them to leave. The money is way too good to be a middle of the pack team in the SEC, rather than taking the risk of leaving and possibly having a better chance at winning in another conference.

My prediction is that the Big 12 will be completely wiped out, and everyone remaining from the B12 will melt into already formed conferences, or there will be a major split up, and conferences such as CUSA, the MVC, and maybe a few others will get reorganized and one big conference will come out of it, similar to the big east with non football teams.

[MoValley John]

The biggest problem with the Big XII currently is the instability and distrust. Secondly, there isn't enough competition to make it a serious football conference.

Colorado left the Big XII because they never thought that they fit geographically and academically. Colorado likens itself to Stanford and Cal. Factor in the revenue disparity, and Colorado couldn't compete at a level with Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas and Texas a&M. Colorado struggled to pay their buyout and has kept coaches longer than they wanted simply because they couldn't afford to fire them. The revenue sharing in the Big XII killed Colorado. When Texas began negotiating with the Big 10 and Colorado wasn't a part of the discussion, Colorado took it upon themselves to negotiate their own deal, where they could be a part of a conference in which they felt fit them better, plus offered a financial situation in which they could compete. In the end, Colorado joining the Big 10 ruined Texas's plans by eliminating one of the four schools Texas had put on the table.

Contrary to what Nebraska or Texas fans spout, Nebraska bolted the Big XII simply for stability. Texas fans believe Nebraska left because they couldn't stand getting beat every year by Texas. They likened it to the spoiled kid who picked up his ball and went home. Nebraska fans point to how unfair the league had become and how much power Texas yielded. They pointed to all of the 11-1 votes that went against Nebraska. The truth of the matter was this, Nebraska is a football power, like it or not, they are. They have unbelievable resources and money and are a name brand. With Colorado leaving, and the revelation that Texas was negotiating a deal with the Pac 10, combined with the rumblings that Mizzou was supposedly jumping to the Big 10, Nebraska could not afford to sit and do nothing. If Texas, OU and aTm left for the Pac and Mizzou bolted for the Big 10, Nebraska would lose everything. Nebraska had no choice but to do something. Nebraska hated losing to Texas every year, but that isn't why they left, they left because they couldn't afford to be the last power school in the conference. If everyone else left, Nebraska would be relegated to the equivalence of the MWC champion. A great team that nobody cared about. Nebraska had to do something.

Fast forward one year. Texas now controls everything in the big XII. It is the Texas conference. And what is funny is when you read the KSU and ISU boards, they are happy with that. They know that without Texas, they are doomed, so Texas can do whatever Texas wants. They will do whatever makes Texas happy. And you can't blame Texas, either. What school, given the opportunity to control the actions of the entire conference, wouldn't embrace it? Texas is king and Dan Beebe is their guy.

The downfall of that is that schools that aren't KSU and ISU would like a little more say in their destiny. Sure, Texas a&M hates Texas. But Texas A&M isn't in a position where they should have to have Texas shoved down their throats. Missouri doesn't like it either. Oklahoma State isn't happy, but they are stuck with OU. The current situation is good for Texas, good for the little guys, it is CURRENTLY good for OU, but not acceptable to almost anyone that thinks that they can compete on a level playing field. This inequity will continue to forever cause fractures. the Big XII is dead. When it dies is anyone's guess.

OU still benefits from the rules Texas is enacting. They are happy with the situation. They have resources, a large fan base, donations and can benefit from everything Texas is doing. As Bob Stoops has pointed out, who would want to leave a conference when the road to the BCS title game requires that you only beat Texas. Oklahoma benefits from what Texas does, so they will do whatever Texas wants. Until it no longer benefits OU. All the while, aTm is unhappy, Mizzou is unhappy and the other six are stuck with doing exactly what is expected.

Unfortunately, aTm or Mizzou is going to eventually leave. Every school knows this. And the University of Kansas may come out of left field and suddenly surprise everyone by defecting at some point. Kansas has their basketball program to protect and like Nebraska had football, if something bad happens in the conference, they could unfairly suffer. Kansas could be the little unheard of school that leaves when nobody is looking.

Everyone thought that the Big East would be the first to crumble. With their football/ basketball conference, it seemed very unstable. But they have managed to make it work. At least longer than the big XII did. Regardless of what the AD's and college presidents are saying publicly, nobody in the Big XII trusts anyone else. And aTm, Mizzou and Kansas will not be left in a position where they are the ones stuck in a dead conference, there is too much at stake and they can't afford it. With so much power being held by one school, the Big XII is destined to crumble.

[_kai_]

Epic post John. I think you just had a mind mush moment at the beginning when you said Colorado to the Big10 when they went Pac-12. But I knew what you meant.

Texas has very much created their own demise imo. Their future is the one that is in a big state of questioning. I think Texas will always be a super power for football, but under what conference is the big question. Arguably with their TV Network, they have the best course of actually making their own conference, and I've discussed that avenue with friends before. That I wouldn't be surprised to see a Texas conference that pulls in some of the smaller Texas schools along with Tech, and possibly the Oklahoma schools.

[SubGod22]

Epic post John. I think you just had a mind mush moment at the beginning when you said Colorado to the Big10 when they went Pac-12. But I knew what you meant.

Texas has very much created their own demise imo. Their future is the one that is in a big state of questioning. I think Texas will always be a super power for football, but under what conference is the big question. Arguably with their TV Network, they have the best course of actually making their own conference, and I've discussed that avenue with friends before. That I wouldn't be surprised to see a Texas conference that pulls in some of the smaller Texas schools along with Tech, and possibly the Oklahoma schools.

Something along the lines of:

Texas, 0klahoma, OSU, Houston, UTEP, Tech, North Texas, SMU, Baylor and Rice?

[_kai_]

Epic post John. I think you just had a mind mush moment at the beginning when you said Colorado to the Big10 when they went Pac-12. But I knew what you meant.

Texas has very much created their own demise imo. Their future is the one that is in a big state of questioning. I think Texas will always be a super power for football, but under what conference is the big question. Arguably with their TV Network, they have the best course of actually making their own conference, and I've discussed that avenue with friends before. That I wouldn't be surprised to see a Texas conference that pulls in some of the smaller Texas schools along with Tech, and possibly the Oklahoma schools.

Something along the lines of:

Texas, 0klahoma, OSU, Houston, UTEP, Tech, North Texas, SMU, Baylor and Rice?

Those were the exact schools. The option to add KSU and KU would be there to force it to 12 schools, and possibly it would stay the Big 12 or come under new leadership and be a whole new conference, but you get the idea. I do think those 10 you listed would be the best bet at a conference, it just depends where the KS schools fall in everything.

You could even go as far as to say those schools plust a hodge podge of other schools around the midwest to make a mega hoops conference. Wichita State, SLU, ORU, Tulsa, Creighton, maybe Mo State. Its a thought that could be a long shot. And Tulsa and Mo St have football teams, MSU could bump to d1 if needed. But there are schools there that could be non football schools such as a WSU that would strengthen that conference RPI wise. So they could maybe only add 2-4 non football schools and have a 14-16 team conference for hoops.

[MoValley John]

Sorry about mixing up Colorado with the Big 10 and Pac 10. That mistake is unforgivable!!! ;-) :D :cry: 8)

I will attempt to atone for that transgression by watching 10 straight hours of "The Lucy Show" reruns.


And no, I won't be mixing in a few episodes of I love Lucy! That won't cut it!

By tomorrow, I will never, ever mix up the Big 10 with the Pac 10 again!!!! :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:


I am so sorry.