Russia-Ukraine War

[wichshock65]

Would Russia shutting off the spigot of the Nord Stream 1 be an act of war?

[C0|dB|00ded]

Ukraine actually lost out when they agreed (with Western Europe and President Clinton) to give up their nukes to Russia (in the agreement, the Western powers promised to support Ukraine if necessary) in the 90's so that the West wouldn't have another nuclear country to worry about. The West hasn't lived up to their part of the treaty. The trust doesn't go both ways.

Scandalous and disappointing if true. I say if true because your information sources are usually tainted, to put it nicely.

The fact that China is standing idly by while Russia commits these atrocities should leave no doubt that they are our enemy. A united China Russia vs. the world would create a fairly formidable "Axis of Evil". If the powder keg blew, you could have Iran and N. Korea joining in with the festivities. Almost 4 nuclear powers and they're all ****ed in the head.

I'm fairly certain we can protect ourselves from nuclear attack, but we can't protect the rest of the free world which renders our defenses moot. If this all goes tits up, Israel, Japan, and S. Korea are immediate targets by their neighbors.

[Shockm]

This is absolutely true. One of my college professors worked as a low level intelligence agent for the NSA as a grad student in Ireland. This was in the mid 80s and his job was to read all news on Northern Ireland and send it to his handler.

He quit when they tried to get him friendly with known terrorists.

Point being, this type of intelligence gathering is still performed by governments all over the world.

I’m not sure what you are saying. Are the Ukrainians (women and children too)the terrorists?

General Keane said that much of the strategy that Russia is trying to accomplish when they aim (and kill) at women, children, and multi-plex apartments/homes is to break the will of Ukrainians to fight back.

These people are grabbing a bag of personal belongings, and trying to get away. That’s all they have, and they are still getting hit by aimed missiles.

[Shockm]

Ukraine actually lost out when they agreed (with Western Europe and President Clinton) to give up their nukes to Russia (in the agreement, the Western powers promised to support Ukraine if necessary) in the 90's so that the West wouldn't have another nuclear country to worry about. The West hasn't lived up to their part of the treaty. The trust doesn't go both ways.

[wufan]

At the minimum. This is for the world consumption. Ukrainians on the ground already know what's up in their town and what they are planning. That's as good as it's gonna get for them, I'm afraid. Anything being televised further is just for our knowledge and can only be used to alert Russians and put in their minds that everyone is fair game. Whereas if their had been any reservations before, it's gone.

It's easier to show a 19 year old private a video from his propaganda officer of Sergei and say, "See Misha, you need not worry about Ukraine civilian they kill you". As opposed to Misha's humanity hesitating at first, then getting torched.

It's not about justifying Russia. It's Russia using it as well to sway their soldiers to do the bad.

I just don't think it's helping Ukraine in the end.

This is absolutely true. One of my college professors worked as a low level intelligence agent for the NSA as a grad student in Ireland. This was in the mid 80s and his job was to read all news on Northern Ireland and send it to his handler.

He quit when they tried to get him friendly with known terrorists.

Point being, this type of intelligence gathering is still performed by governments all over the world.

[ShockerPrez]

I get it. So you're just saying they should show Sergei in some undisclosed location in some undisclosed city, whoopin ass, and not giving enough info to pinpoint his location?

At the minimum. This is for the world consumption. Ukrainians on the ground already know what's up in their town and what they are planning. That's as good as it's gonna get for them, I'm afraid. Anything being televised further is just for our knowledge and can only be used to alert Russians and put in their minds that everyone is fair game. Whereas if their had been any reservations before, it's gone.

It's easier to show a 19 year old private a video from his propaganda officer of Sergei and say, "See Misha, you need not worry about Ukraine civilian they kill you". As opposed to Misha's humanity hesitating at first, then getting torched.

It's not about justifying Russia. It's Russia using it as well to sway their soldiers to do the bad.

I just don't think it's helping Ukraine in the end.

[Kung Wu]

Nothing I've said justifies Russia's invasion. It is about the continued propaganda showing where and how Ukraine's are planning to fight. It only gives Russia more intelligence to neutralize their resistance before it can be implemented.

There is a difference between, "Russia has been met with civilian defenses in town X" and "Here's Sergei, he's been making molotov cocktails instead of vodka in preperation of the Russians coming".

Well, sergei and his 300 bombs are now gone, in addition to the 15 houses next door as Russia sent 45 shells his way. Because the Russian intelligence officer had a tip on the news.

Now, maybe Sergei was toast anyway, but no need to advertise his actions and ensure it.

I get it. So you're just saying they should show Sergei in some undisclosed location in some undisclosed city, whoopin ass, and not giving enough info to pinpoint his location?

[ShockerPrez]

Nothing I've said justifies Russia's invasion. It is about the continued propaganda showing where and how Ukraine's are planning to fight. It only gives Russia more intelligence to neutralize their resistance before it can be implemented.

There is a difference between, "Russia has been met with civilian defenses in town X" and "Here's Sergei, he's been making molotov cocktails instead of vodka in preperation of the Russians coming".

Well, sergei and his 300 bombs are now gone, in addition to the 15 houses next door as Russia sent 45 shells his way. Because the Russian intelligence officer had a tip on the news.

Now, maybe Sergei was toast anyway, but no need to advertise his actions and ensure it.

[ShockerPrez]

Sort of a catch-22. They weren't combatants until they were invaded. The casus belli for the Russians becomes "see how our are troops are being attacked in Ukraine?"

Mother****er, what are they doing in Ukraine?

I agree that it is s catch 22. But I just think the more underground and secretive the better. Ukraine's who want to know are probably able to organize locally where need be. No need to give the commies any more info then necessary. Let them roll in unsuspecting and then catch hell and inflict casualties. As opposed to them expecting hell and just slaughtering everything that moves.

I don't think advertising is going to prompt Russia to turn around at this point. It's about causing maximum pain on Russia.

[Shockm]

Pro tip to Ukraine.

Stop publicizing your civilians making war materials and/or fighting back. Once you do, they cease to be civilians and become semi-legitimate targets to war fighters. Sorry, it's great and all, but when you pick up a rifle and then get killed, you aren't truly a civilian casualty.

Again, do it as you see fit, but stop letting the press show you as a brewer making molotov cocktails, then cry about a civilian warehouse getting bombed. Publicity is muy malo, and increases the liklihood of you being targeted.

Keep it on the down-low, then tell the tale after you triumph.

Bad argument. Ukraine can't be the bad guy, and Russia the good guy here, no matter what context you use. Russia is a dictatorship that invaded a democracy without provocation no matter how Russia tries to "spin" the story.

[SB Shock]

Not legitimizing it, but if Russia sees a news story that a brewery outside of town X is making bombs, why would Russia not pummel that brewery? No one is legitimizing Russia's action.

You have not been paying attention to Russia tactics. go look at what they did and continue to do to prop up the Assad government.

When they wage war they indiscriminately destroy everything. That brewery is going to be pummeled on way or another.

This is a tactical take. Don't let Russia know where your underground resistance is. It's stupid. Stop publicising your bag of tricks. Russia can find out the hard way and will get the message soon enough. They aren't gonna see a news story and rethink the invasion at this point. It's only going to make you a target.

Russia see any standing infrastructure as a potential location for resistance. It will all be carpet bombed.

[Kung Wu]

Not legitimizing it, but if Russia sees a news story that a brewery outside of town X is making bombs, why would Russia not pummel that brewery? No one is legitimizing Russia's action. This is a tactical take. Don't let Russia know where your underground resistance is. It's stupid. Stop publicising your bag of tricks. Russia can find out the hard way and will get the message soon enough. They aren't gonna see a news story and rethink the invasion at this point. It's only going to make you a target.

I think the purpose of showing one group of civilians fighting is to encourage other civilians to also stand their ground. What I don't understand is how they can consume that information though -- Russia has killed their internet access. Do they have OTA broadcast in Ukraine?

[BOBB]

Pro tip to Ukraine.

Stop publicizing your civilians making war materials and/or fighting back. Once you do, they cease to be civilians and become semi-legitimate targets to war fighters. Sorry, it's great and all, but when you pick up a rifle and then get killed, you aren't truly a civilian casualty.

Again, do it as you see fit, but stop letting the press show you as a brewer making molotov cocktails, then cry about a civilian warehouse getting bombed. Publicity is muy malo, and increases the liklihood of you being targeted.

Keep it on the down-low, then tell the tale after you triumph.

Sort of a catch-22. They weren't combatants until they were invaded. The casus belli for the Russians becomes "see how our are troops are being attacked in Ukraine?"

Mother****er, what are they doing in Ukraine?

[ShockerPrez]

Bad take.

Ukraine has no chance of winning in a conventional fight. Their only chance is to make Russia understand that the price for their victory is going to be to high in national treasure and that they will never subdue the Ukrainian people. Once Russian invaded Ukraine, there is nothing that Ukraine could do that would legitimize Russia actions.

Not legitimizing it, but if Russia sees a news story that a brewery outside of town X is making bombs, why would Russia not pummel that brewery? No one is legitimizing Russia's action. This is a tactical take. Don't let Russia know where your underground resistance is. It's stupid. Stop publicising your bag of tricks. Russia can find out the hard way and will get the message soon enough. They aren't gonna see a news story and rethink the invasion at this point. It's only going to make you a target.

[SB Shock]

Pro tip to Ukraine.

Stop publicizing your civilians making war materials and/or fighting back. Once you do, they cease to be civilians and become semi-legitimate targets to war fighters. Sorry, it's great and all, but when you pick up a rifle and then get killed, you aren't truly a civilian casualty.

Again, do it as you see fit, but stop letting the press show you as a brewer making molotov cocktails, then cry about a civilian warehouse getting bombed. Publicity is muy malo, and increases the liklihood of you being targeted.

Keep it on the down-low, then tell the tale after you triumph.

Bad take.

Ukraine has no chance of winning in a conventional fight. Their only chance is to make Russia understand that the price for their victory is going to be to high in national treasure and that they will never subdue the Ukrainian people. Once Russian invaded Ukraine, there is nothing that Ukraine could do that would legitimize Russia actions.