Defunding/Abolishing Police

[wufan]

Another important factor in this case was that there was no imminent danger (I don't believe) to any officer. I thought I even read that the department may have considered the situation as one where even a taser should not have been used.

My understanding was the opposite. I could be wrong, but legal insurrection stated that had she not yelled, “taser, taser, taser” and just fired her gun, it would have been a good shoot. Perhaps I’m mistaken though.

[WuDrWu]

We're going to see this play out again in Los Angeles where a 14 year old girl was apparently caught in the fire of a police officer at a store and has died. This appears to be beyond horrible.

[Shockm]

We spend a lot of time talking about protecting police officers who are “bad seeds” (although I reject that Kim Potter was a bad seed), but here is an officer who got little national press for saving a life. It’s a couple of months old but still an encouraging story.

https://wset.com/news/nation-world/video-rookie-police-officer-saves-baby-from-choking

[Shockm]

The definition of culpable negligence (without a reasonable doubt of C. N. ) in a chaotic situation is what I have a problem with. It almost (not quite) means that she intentionally was negligent. That’s hard when a policeman is fighting with a criminal (he was only a criminal because he was not obeying police orders).

Potter’s black training partner wanted to make a unnecessary stop (looking back it was unnecessary anyway. Potter had no history of police use of excessive force. Her partner wasn’t charged with anything, and it appears like he made a mistake because he didn’t move Wright to the back seat with cuffs, which allowed Wright to struggle later. Did Potter make a mistake amidst chaos or intentionally shoot Wright?

Even 10 years seems excessive to me for a mistake, even though it took someone else’s life. No one wants to defend “bad seed” cops, but from all accounts, Potter wasn’t a bad seed.

[ShockTalk]

Shouldn't have been a factor at all. That has nothing to do with whether she was guilty of manslaughter.

"For a conviction, the state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Potter handled her firearm “recklessly” and showed culpable negligence in her actions that resulted in Wright’s death."

If she shouldn't have had even a taser in her hand, having a gun in her hand was reckless handling. Had the victim had a gun or weapon or there been imminent danger, there would have been no reckless use of a firearm.

[WuDrWu]

I appreciate everyone's input and the discussion on this topic. It's tough for sure. Certainly has me thinking, and for that I'm grateful.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Another important factor in this case was that there was no imminent danger (I don't believe) to any officer. I thought I even read that the department may have considered the situation as one where even a taser should not have been used.

Shouldn't have been a factor at all. That has nothing to do with whether she was guilty of manslaughter.

[Shockm]

You sound anti-police or at least dismissive of the difficulty of their job.

What is your job?

Did you grow up with your father leaving home each day, and you never knew whether he would return home? I know children of law enforcement who have talked about the fears their mother faced when a shooting of a police officer went out over the air waves. Their mothers often listened on scanners during a dangerous shift. They often feared the worse. Not an easy family existence.

Why would crime ever go back down, now that criminals are making a decision on the risk vs. reward of crimes. Some of the “smash and grab” criminals make $1,000 a day.

[ShockTalk]

Again, why are our military who are knowingly surrounded by those who mean them hard held to such stricter standards that police against American citizens?

There are some cities that have absolutely **** on police and made their jobs more difficult. The increase in crime there is on the politicians, though in some cases, the police force isn't completely devoid of blame as their actions and protection of bad officers lead to the distrust and unrest as well. Pretending police are infallible and do no wrong is just as harmful as those who think they do no right.

Police are also trained, or should be, to keep their cool in chaotic situations. Hell, they expect the average citizen to do that with zero training. Why aren't they held to the same standards?

I also sincerely doubt she gets 25 years for this and she shouldn't. But she should spend some time behind bars for her actions. Just because she feels bad for what she did doesn't mean she gets to avoid the consequences of her actions. That would be a real shitty way for justice to work. And why is it so controversial to believe law enforcement should face the same consequences as an average Joe when the break the law or infringe upon someone else's rights? They're not above the law or any more important than you or me. They also go into a profession they know could potentially be dangerous and it's a risk the sign up for. Much like our military, who's jobs are far more dangerous in combat regions but have much more accountability and rules than police.

Again, some of these poor decisions and whatnot wouldn't be viewed so harshly by so many if police were found more accountable for their actions, especially the blatant misconduct that is often protected and I gave a few examples of previously. You get those shitheads off the force and stop protecting them and their ilk and you will definitely have less backlash for more minor things and misunderstanding that get blown out of proportion now because their is nearly no accountability far too often.

And if you're worried about crime, you should convince more police departments to focus on crime prevention or actually solving cases and less on revenue generation for petty ****. Reallocate some of those officers and actually solve cases. The rate of successfully solving crimes has gone way the **** down over the years and it's not because there aren't enough officers. It's more to do with departments focusing their efforts elsewhere. And in a few rare cases, it's on DAs who won't prosecute, but that's more recent and in very few select cities.

Another important factor in this case was that there was no imminent danger (I don't believe) to any officer. I thought I even read that the department may have considered the situation as one where even a taser should not have been used.

[SubGod22]

One thing that you don’t mention is that this situation consisted of her mistake during a possible life and death situation that was filled with chaos and confusion. I’ve never had a dangerous situation where I had to make split second decisions that could be the result of life or death.

Again, why are our military who are knowingly surrounded by those who mean them hard held to such stricter standards that police against American citizens?

There are some cities that have absolutely **** on police and made their jobs more difficult. The increase in crime there is on the politicians, though in some cases, the police force isn't completely devoid of blame as their actions and protection of bad officers lead to the distrust and unrest as well. Pretending police are infallible and do no wrong is just as harmful as those who think they do no right.

Police are also trained, or should be, to keep their cool in chaotic situations. Hell, they expect the average citizen to do that with zero training. Why aren't they held to the same standards?

I also sincerely doubt she gets 25 years for this and she shouldn't. But she should spend some time behind bars for her actions. Just because she feels bad for what she did doesn't mean she gets to avoid the consequences of her actions. That would be a real shitty way for justice to work. And why is it so controversial to believe law enforcement should face the same consequences as an average Joe when the break the law or infringe upon someone else's rights? They're not above the law or any more important than you or me. They also go into a profession they know could potentially be dangerous and it's a risk the sign up for. Much like our military, who's jobs are far more dangerous in combat regions but have much more accountability and rules than police.

Again, some of these poor decisions and whatnot wouldn't be viewed so harshly by so many if police were found more accountable for their actions, especially the blatant misconduct that is often protected and I gave a few examples of previously. You get those shitheads off the force and stop protecting them and their ilk and you will definitely have less backlash for more minor things and misunderstanding that get blown out of proportion now because their is nearly no accountability far too often.

And if you're worried about crime, you should convince more police departments to focus on crime prevention or actually solving cases and less on revenue generation for petty ****. Reallocate some of those officers and actually solve cases. The rate of successfully solving crimes has gone way the **** down over the years and it's not because there aren't enough officers. It's more to do with departments focusing their efforts elsewhere. And in a few rare cases, it's on DAs who won't prosecute, but that's more recent and in very few select cities.

[Shockm]

I haven't followed the Potter case closely, but it's not like they convicted her of murder, which would have been absolutely wrong. She was reckless and a gun and taser do not feel the same and an officer should also know which side of their body they're carrying each.

I may be in the minority here, but police should have more accountability for their actions. That includes the really shitty ones who knowingly and willingly abuse their power and hide behind the badge while committing crimes against citizens and violations of the Constitution as well as those who make grave mistakes like this one probably was. She should have known better. She should have used better judgement. She shouldn't have killed anyone. If a regular citizen makes a mistake that leads to the death of an individual without willful intent to kill or even harm, they face criminal actions as well and pay that price. Police should be no different.

You want people to have better views of law enforcement and to treat them better? Much of that improves with better police accountability and holding those who do wrong responsible. Too often do cops get away with no real punishment. There's still the guy in Arizona who killed a man, on video, who was complying with every single order he was given. That officer faced no criminal action, was let go and then rehired shortly afterward.

Police officers are held to much lower standards and face much less disciplinary action that soldiers in combat zones. How much ****ing sense does that make? And I don't have a major problem with our troops having high standards when it comes to rules of engagement. I do have a problem with our police force who deal with American citizens, having such insanely low standards when it comes to such things. And it's not all about death and shooting. Basic rights are trampled and ignored often, even when caught on camera or their own body cams.

Like the case where police repeatedly came to a home looking for a runaway who wasn't there. They purposefully came when the parents were away at work and tried to intimidate the underage kids who were there, eventually illegally entered the home, shoved the kid by his face and then threw him down and arrested him. They then continued to illegally search the home and take the kid to the station. The kid was released and I believe all charges against him were dropped (there were no legit charges) and the officers have to this day faced zero consequences even though the entire even was captured on home surveillance.

There are way too many cases like these, and many other horrible actions that go unpunished that lead to so much distrust. Yes, there are some yahoos that will hate all cops no matter what, but most of the distrust and animosity is built on cases such as these and police departments protecting despicable people who should never have a badge to hide behind. Plus, the badge shouldn't offer anyone a hiding place anyway. If police departments truly policed their own and stopped protecting assholes and justifying abuses, there would be a lot less animosity in this country. The media and hardcore leftists push an agenda, but most people don't fall into their demographic. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that they do.

Most people will show respect as long as they're also being respected. You can't be an asshole and then hide behind a badge and think you deserve something more than disdain.

I feel like I always have to preface such posts, here as well as FB, with acknowledging the fact that I have a good relationship with a number of people in law enforcement. I've had good discussions and debates amongst many topics and they often agree with a number of my stances. With that said, the majority of officers I know work in smaller communities where they are held to higher standards by the community as well as city councils and they don't have a problem with that. They understand their roles within the community. Some have worked previously in larger cities and have some interesting perspectives, but generally agree that their are departments out there, and too many, that are all too willing to circle the wagons to protect their shitheads.

Back to Potter, I'm sure she genuinely feels bad for what happened and didn't kill on purpose. But she did and should face some consequences. I'm not sure what the maximum is for what she was convicted of and I have no problem with her spending a short time in prison if need be, but also wouldn't be completely opposed to a long probationary period with restrictions. She should never be allowed to work in law enforcement again.

Another post that got away from me and went on way too long. But it is what it is.

Glad I’m not a policeman, and also sad we have such a shortage of them. It’s become a thankless job, and we are probably in for a decade or two of societal crime ridden consequences. I guess in those communities with such a shortage of policemen, you just need to avoid heavy crime, unsafe areas. So Potter could get 25 years for a mistake that you said you feel she’s genuinely apologetic for what happened. Quite a price to pay. Here’s the kicker. In Minnesota, New York, California, Washington, and other liberal run states, one can’t even carry a gun to protect themselves. My advice is to stay away from big cities, especially after dark, or hope your car doesn’t break down.

One thing that you don’t mention is that this situation consisted of her mistake during a possible life and death situation that was filled with chaos and confusion. I’ve never had a dangerous situation where I had to make split second decisions that could be the result of life or death.

[ShockTalk]

I'm not sure what the maximum is for what she was convicted of and I have no problem with her spending a short time in prison if need be, but also wouldn't be completely opposed to a long probationary period with restrictions. She should never be allowed to work in law enforcement again.

Convicted of 1st and 2nd degree manslaughter. 1st carries up to 15 years + fine, 2nd degree carries 10 years + fine. I'm assuming the judge could go to run concurrently and for shorter periods.

[SubGod22]

I haven't followed the Potter case closely, but it's not like they convicted her of murder, which would have been absolutely wrong. She was reckless and a gun and taser do not feel the same and an officer should also know which side of their body they're carrying each.

I may be in the minority here, but police should have more accountability for their actions. That includes the really shitty ones who knowingly and willingly abuse their power and hide behind the badge while committing crimes against citizens and violations of the Constitution as well as those who make grave mistakes like this one probably was. She should have known better. She should have used better judgement. She shouldn't have killed anyone. If a regular citizen makes a mistake that leads to the death of an individual without willful intent to kill or even harm, they face criminal actions as well and pay that price. Police should be no different.

You want people to have better views of law enforcement and to treat them better? Much of that improves with better police accountability and holding those who do wrong responsible. Too often do cops get away with no real punishment. There's still the guy in Arizona who killed a man, on video, who was complying with every single order he was given. That officer faced no criminal action, was let go and then rehired shortly afterward.

Police officers are held to much lower standards and face much less disciplinary action that soldiers in combat zones. How much ****ing sense does that make? And I don't have a major problem with our troops having high standards when it comes to rules of engagement. I do have a problem with our police force who deal with American citizens, having such insanely low standards when it comes to such things. And it's not all about death and shooting. Basic rights are trampled and ignored often, even when caught on camera or their own body cams.

Like the case where police repeatedly came to a home looking for a runaway who wasn't there. They purposefully came when the parents were away at work and tried to intimidate the underage kids who were there, eventually illegally entered the home, shoved the kid by his face and then threw him down and arrested him. They then continued to illegally search the home and take the kid to the station. The kid was released and I believe all charges against him were dropped (there were no legit charges) and the officers have to this day faced zero consequences even though the entire even was captured on home surveillance.

There are way too many cases like these, and many other horrible actions that go unpunished that lead to so much distrust. Yes, there are some yahoos that will hate all cops no matter what, but most of the distrust and animosity is built on cases such as these and police departments protecting despicable people who should never have a badge to hide behind. Plus, the badge shouldn't offer anyone a hiding place anyway. If police departments truly policed their own and stopped protecting assholes and justifying abuses, there would be a lot less animosity in this country. The media and hardcore leftists push an agenda, but most people don't fall into their demographic. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that they do.

Most people will show respect as long as they're also being respected. You can't be an asshole and then hide behind a badge and think you deserve something more than disdain.

I feel like I always have to preface such posts, here as well as FB, with acknowledging the fact that I have a good relationship with a number of people in law enforcement. I've had good discussions and debates amongst many topics and they often agree with a number of my stances. With that said, the majority of officers I know work in smaller communities where they are held to higher standards by the community as well as city councils and they don't have a problem with that. They understand their roles within the community. Some have worked previously in larger cities and have some interesting perspectives, but generally agree that their are departments out there, and too many, that are all too willing to circle the wagons to protect their shitheads.

Back to Potter, I'm sure she genuinely feels bad for what happened and didn't kill on purpose. But she did and should face some consequences. I'm not sure what the maximum is for what she was convicted of and I have no problem with her spending a short time in prison if need be, but also wouldn't be completely opposed to a long probationary period with restrictions. She should never be allowed to work in law enforcement again.

Another post that got away from me and went on way too long. But it is what it is.

[WuDrWu]

I just don't see how anyone is likely to want to join the force going forward.

[ShockTalk]

And we see wokeness stupidity win again as a jury of 12 morons convict police officer Kim Potter of 1st and 2nd degree manslaughter.

She should lose her job, I'll grant you that. The thought process prevalent now towards the police defies common sense.

I need more guns and more ammo because criminals are going to continue to feel empowered and emboldened.

Whether the judge will go with the maximum or something less (or much less) is to be determined. While I totally believe it was an accident on her part and not purposeful, I believe verdict met the requirements of "For a conviction, the state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Potter handled her firearm “recklessly” and showed culpable negligence in her actions that resulted in Wright’s death."

In general, culpability has mild connotations. It is used to mean reprehensible rather than wantonly or grossly negligent behavior. Culpable conduct may be wrong, but it is not necessarily criminal (think purposeful).