Defunding/Abolishing Police

[SubGod22]

There's always more to the story. But I have never seen a perp get beaten where when the cop said to do something, the perp complied. It's always the perp running, or resisting, or trying to keep from getting cuffed, or whatever.

And I will always give them the benefit of the doubt for a number of reasons. Most of all because I would rather they be in society than the person they are dealing with, if I had to make a choice. Because every situation could mean their life (see cop in OK), if they need to beat someone's ass to keep themselves safe, so be it. They deal with the dregs so I don't have to.

You need to do more research. I've seen body cam footage of guys doing exactly what they're being told and they still get killed. One was on his knees, as instructed and the other was crawling towards an officer as instructed. And the man on his knees was shot in the back twice by an officer.

Then there was the mental health therapist lying down with his hands up explaining to police what was going on, he was working with a patient who had been agitated. He got shot, though the cop did admit he was aiming for the patient, who was unarmed as well.

Then there was the Houston man who was on his knees and unarmed, surrounded by police when they opened fire. The police lied about what went down and they refused to release body cam footage and the facts didn't come out until a bystander who had recorded the incident on their phone posted it online.

There was the poor service dog that got tased, and later died in Gastonia not too long ago. Police refused to release the body cam footage until a judge finally forced them. The officer in question claimed the service animal bit him, but video shows that never happened. That officer is also the son of the head of IA and of course was found to have done no wrong. There's also evidence that the officer then tried to intimidate witnesses into corroborating his story.

Then there's always the Wichita incident where a man was being yelled at by multiple police saying different commands and then he was executed by the cop furthest from the scene within seconds of walking outside.

I know you said beaten, but being executed while doing nothing wrong is worse.

Sometimes bad things happen to cops too. But not nearly as often as some would want you to believe. There are far more dangerous occupations out there and cops do have way too much slack on the use of violence. Many departments also need much better de-escalation training. Too many officers are looking for trouble. Too many officers don't understand the Constitution and the rights that citizens have. Too many officers don't actually understand the laws they try to enforce, and in some cases, simply make **** up to try and get over on people.

As I've always said, though I'm sure this post will then get taken out of context, these examples and the many more out there are the minority of cops. But too many of them are continually protected by departments and DAs which only make things worse. It emboldens bad, abusive or ignorant cops to keep doing what they're doing and sews even more mistrust in communities.

And why do we hold police, who deal with our citizens, to a lower standard than soldiers in combat who are truly surrounded by enemies? That's a question that never seems to get answered. Rules of engagement are much lesser when talking about being used against American citizens than potential enemy combatants. Someone please answer that one.

[ShockerPrez]

There's always more to the story. But I have never seen a perp get beaten where when the cop said to do something, the perp complied. It's always the perp running, or resisting, or trying to keep from getting cuffed, or whatever.

And I will always give them the benefit of the doubt for a number of reasons. Most of all because I would rather they be in society than the person they are dealing with, if I had to make a choice. Because every situation could mean their life (see cop in OK), if they need to beat someone's ass to keep themselves safe, so be it. They deal with the dregs so I don't have to.

[WuDrWu]

This and the off duty cop run over in Alabama, but all the focus on the 3 guys in Arkansas.

I don't know where we are going. I realize things are perfect, but these public servants are tasked to respond. That doesn't mean they are all perfect, but the real issue, as always, is the criminal mind.

[Shockm]

https://www.kansas.com/news/nation-w...264788579.html

Veteran deputy is shot and killed while serving eviction notice, Oklahoma cops say, “This was about as routine as it gets,” said Aaron Brilbeck, public information officer for the sheriff’s office. “These guys.... they do lockouts and serve papers and that’s pretty much all they do, and they do it extraordinarily well.”

Read more at: https://www.kansas.com/news/nation-w...#storylink=cpy

We often just talk about how the police mis-use their status at the hands of the public. This shows what happens to them on a routine day, when things go bad for them. It's a good thing that this just happened to a policeman, since they just protect themselves at the expense of the public. RIP

[Shockm]

Nothing in her actions justify anything about Rapp. It's irrelevant, but I know why you brought it up.

I'd rather deal with an annoying loud mouth than someone eager to pull a trigger for no reason. Glad you see them in similar glasses though...

I had a feeling that you would go with the idea that I was justifying Rapp. I wasn't doing that and my comments were very critical of him, and not a comparison of his actions to hers at all. The people I know couldn't avoid her abusiveness, and manipulation. They had to just take it and roll with it as a part of their job which they often do. Could WPD have fired him for his error in judgement? I don't know how their policies read,

I would go so far to compare them in this way. I would avoid having to deal with, and believing both entities. They both are probably people that cannot be trusted, and handled with caution, is my POV.

[SubGod22]

Anyone who has common sense, can see that the Finch shooting raises questions about the judgement of the shooter (Rapp). An error in judgement, itchy finger, stupidity, etc.? No one can get in his head and know for sure, but he seems to have a big mouth. I don’t know for sure because I only know what I read in the paper, but he doesn’t seem like a candidate for promotion.

However, I do know people I respect who have dealt with the Finch family. The mother has a reputation for having a big mouth too in the past. She, allegedly, makes public threats, and accusations, has a history of yelling at, and imposing threats on school officials for things that go against her kids, and grandkids who also live with her, even if they deserve the punishment. From what I understand, she has a habit of throwing her weight around, and is unreasonable, and someone that any sane individual tries to avoid.

Nothing in her actions justify anything about Rapp. It's irrelevant, but I know why you brought it up.

I'd rather deal with an annoying loud mouth than someone eager to pull a trigger for no reason. Glad you see them in similar glasses though...

[Shockm]

Anyone who has common sense, can see that the Finch shooting raises questions about the judgement of the shooter (Rapp). An error in judgement, itchy finger, stupidity, etc.? No one can get in his head and know for sure, but he seems to have a big mouth. I don’t know for sure because I only know what I read in the paper, but he doesn’t seem like a candidate for promotion.

However, I do know people I respect who have dealt with the Finch family. The mother has a reputation for having a big mouth too in the past. She, allegedly, makes public threats, and accusations, has a history of yelling at, and imposing threats on school officials for things that go against her kids, and grandkids who also live with her, even if they deserve the punishment. From what I understand, she has a habit of throwing her weight around, and is unreasonable, and someone that any sane individual tries to avoid.

[Maizerunner08]

There's quite a bit in this local piece about why there's distrust. The callousness of Rapp as well as the text messages amongst others and the complete lack of transparency within the WPD. Especially the WPD in regards to the City Council, where much of this has been hidden from until there are leaks that get out. How are civilians supposed to trust police when there's a segment who find police abuse of civilians to be funny? And how were these people not held accountable by the former police chief? These are just a glimpse at why people don't trust law enforcement as it's just another example of the police force protecting their own and not holding anyone accountable. And the Rapp promotion, especially after some of what's been discovered and that he's involved in a federal lawsuit over his actions, shows a complete lack of awareness and is a figurative flipping the bird to the public.

AOL - Wichita officer Justin Rapp planned to tell family of man he killed to 'get over it'



I just skipped through and shared some highlights. And while I'm no fan of Whipple, he's not wrong with some of his feelings on this.

We know these things go on in some departments, but when they're finally leaked and it proves that law enforcement will go out of its way to protect bad apples, it does even more harm to their relationship with the general public.

I've said before that I've had sources to at least four different local police departments who all said that the Rapp shooting was a bad shoot. These people couldn't say anything publicly for fear of retaliation for not "backing the blue". But if you really want to back the blue, you need to call out bad cops and/or bad actions and back the good people in blue.

How are Wichitans supposed to feel safe knowing that there are a number of unnamed officers who think police brutality is a joke and civilians don't deserve respect, or their Constitutional rights, and are there for their amusement? How are they to feel safe when someone who shot an innocent man, justified or not, thinks the family should just get over it and has zero remorse for what happened? And then that same guy gets promoted while many locals are still upset and outraged over the lack of action from the WPD, the DA or the city over the incident.

These are not the ways you build trust with the public. And having an occasional BBQ or TikTok dance isn't going to solve it.

This just shows a complete lack of accountability which is all most people who are constantly called haters of police want. Accountability shouldn't be too much to ask for. But for some reason, if that's what you want, some people think you're a monster.

Very disturbing. Honestly that sounds like something a sociopath would say. To not have ANY remorse for killing someone who you damn well know didn't have a weapon.

I typically like to give police benefit of the doubt. They are humans just like us. However, when you see stuff like this, it's hard to not think that one bad apple can ruin the bunch.

[SubGod22]

There's quite a bit in this local piece about why there's distrust. The callousness of Rapp as well as the text messages amongst others and the complete lack of transparency within the WPD. Especially the WPD in regards to the City Council, where much of this has been hidden from until there are leaks that get out. How are civilians supposed to trust police when there's a segment who find police abuse of civilians to be funny? And how were these people not held accountable by the former police chief? These are just a glimpse at why people don't trust law enforcement as it's just another example of the police force protecting their own and not holding anyone accountable. And the Rapp promotion, especially after some of what's been discovered and that he's involved in a federal lawsuit over his actions, shows a complete lack of awareness and is a figurative flipping the bird to the public.

AOL - Wichita officer Justin Rapp planned to tell family of man he killed to 'get over it'

Wichita police officer Justin Rapp, who shot and killed unarmed Andrew Finch in 2017, told a police supervisor that if he ever ran into Finch’s mother, he would tell her to “get over it,” a leaked internal police record shows.

That’s one of apparently multiple inflammatory comments Rapp made to fellow officers in the aftermath of the Finch killing that “damages the public trust and confidence and shows lack of sound judgment,” according to a letter sent to Rapp by a deputy chief in May 2020.
.....
Within four months of Ramsay’s March 1 resignation, and two years after the skip letter, interim chief Lem Moore promoted Rapp to detective, despite concerns raised by Mayor Brandon Whipple and City Council members Maggie Ballard and Mike Hoheisel.

Moore did not disclose Rapp’s comments to City Manager Robert Layton, Whipple or the council members, who met with Moore in late June for a briefing on the promotion. At the time, Moore told city leaders that there was nothing in Rapp’s personnel file that would stand in the way of a promotion.

Whipple said he feels like he was lied to. Layton said he trusts Moore but that there’s a problem with information sharing between the police and the rest of the city government.
.....
On the night of his death, Finch opened his door, stepped out on his porch and within 10 seconds had been shot in the chest by Rapp, who was positioned 40 yards away with a rifle. Law enforcement had surrounded the Finch residence and shouted conflicting commands when he stepped outside. There was no verbal warning before the shot.

Rapp told investigators that he thought Finch had a gun and presented a lethal threat to officers near the house.

Federal courts have denied qualified immunity to Rapp, ruling that “a reasonable officer would have known that using deadly force when Finch displayed no weapon and made no overtly threatening movement was unlawful.”
.....
Whipple said he’s disappointed with how he found out about the letter. He said it shows a breakdown in communication between the city’s elected officials, the city manager and the Wichita Police Department. He said he’s more concerned that the information was not available sooner.

“It’s strange to me that I can’t get this (skip letter),” Whipple said. “It had to get leaked out to the activist community so that they could leak it to the council. That’s where we’re at today.”
.....
The city recently disciplined several officers after a Wichita Eagle investigation found they had not been disciplined in a year since the department discovered racist, sexist and homophobic text messages sent or received by Wichita police officers.

Many of the messages took a callous approach toward violence against civilians.

“I’m disgusted with the idea that anyone would feel it’s appropriate to tell a family that they need to just ‘get over’ the loss of a loved one who was killed,” Whipple said. “That line, frankly, is reminiscent of the text message scandal in which people really made light of situations that result in citizens being shot.

I just skipped through and shared some highlights. And while I'm no fan of Whipple, he's not wrong with some of his feelings on this.

We know these things go on in some departments, but when they're finally leaked and it proves that law enforcement will go out of its way to protect bad apples, it does even more harm to their relationship with the general public.

I've said before that I've had sources to at least four different local police departments who all said that the Rapp shooting was a bad shoot. These people couldn't say anything publicly for fear of retaliation for not "backing the blue". But if you really want to back the blue, you need to call out bad cops and/or bad actions and back the good people in blue.

How are Wichitans supposed to feel safe knowing that there are a number of unnamed officers who think police brutality is a joke and civilians don't deserve respect, or their Constitutional rights, and are there for their amusement? How are they to feel safe when someone who shot an innocent man, justified or not, thinks the family should just get over it and has zero remorse for what happened? And then that same guy gets promoted while many locals are still upset and outraged over the lack of action from the WPD, the DA or the city over the incident.

These are not the ways you build trust with the public. And having an occasional BBQ or TikTok dance isn't going to solve it.

This just shows a complete lack of accountability which is all most people who are constantly called haters of police want. Accountability shouldn't be too much to ask for. But for some reason, if that's what you want, some people think you're a monster.

[Kung Wu]

That douchebag of a father needs to burn in jail for a long time for endangering the lives of the kids like he did.

[Shockm]

That was avoidable by the citizen in so many ways!

Before or after this?

"During that time, an officer noticed a gun pointing from a rear window of Johnson's vehicle, at which point he alerted other officers to the gun and pushed it "to the side as a round was fired," the press release states. He also alerted other officers that it was a "kid" who fired the weapon.
A preliminary investigation indicated that the 27-year-old instructed his child to shoot at officers, police said.
To have an adult think it is okay to encourage a [4]-year-old to pull a firearm and shoot at police illustrates how out of hand the campaign against police has gotten,"

What was shown was only a small portion of the police/citizen interactions. We didn't see what happened between the citizen having the gun pointed at the McDonald's employee, and the police interaction, but somehow the gun went to the back seat with the kid, and the interaction took place, and the gun was fired by the 4 year old.

My conclusion is to agree with Wufan that this scene was avoidable. No extreme anger at the bad McDonald's order, no gun, listen to police, just to name a few avoidable decisions. I guess the citizen would blame it on the McDonald's incompetence. Whatever, it shows how the extreme rage people are exhibiting, when they think someone disrespects them.

[wufan]

That was avoidable by the citizen in so many ways!

[WstateU]

[wufan]

To address my thoughts on a couple more side points that have come up:

Do I respect an officer because he is an officer? No. A persons title does not entitle them to respect. There are good cops and bad cops, good doctors and bad doctors, good janitors and bad janitors. Their title has no significance to me in abilities let alone their worth. Respect is granted to individuals, not titles, but I am a person that will grant respect until it is lost, not only once it is earned.

Do I respect, police because their job is dangerous? No. There are many, many much more dangerous jobs, and frankly the danger of a job has zero reflection on the level of respect that should be graced upon it. Certainly an armed robber’s career is much more dangerous than an officer, yet certainly you wouldn’t expect me look up to such an individual?

Finally, should we defund the police? Yes, but probably not in the way you think I mean it. First of all, why do we have 8 federal police forces? Eight? I think one simple thing to do would be to replace ICE with the military already stationed in the US. Other examples available upon request. As to local law enforcement, couldn’t we just install traffic cameras that sent you a ticket in the mail? There’s two ways I would defund police.

[wufan]

The second option that I mentioned above, to anti-police is your being dismissive of the tough job police do in difficult circumstances. The anti-police crowd, do their protesting, while many people who don't believe in policing, just are dismissive of them, and their necessary role in society.

There is a Native-American saying "Don't judge someone else until you've walked in their moccasins". Your statements are very judgmental toward police, and you say nothing about the many possible dangerous daily decisions that they have to make each day, when even a low level traffic stop could become dangerous. Very few jobs require this type of unknown, and I've had family members who are in this type of environment express to me, their daily anxieties (they don't express these concerns to just anyone).

The statement wasn't actually directed just toward you, and I may not have been clear, but the basic idea, I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous. This didn't happen over night. It's been happening for at least 50 years, but in the 90's, there were efforts to put the "bad guys" behind bars. Now, the world seems to be afraid or less willing to do that (thus most of the parolees and criminals who were released early because of Covid were placed in Wichita, instead of K.C. and surrounding areas to Wichita). If car jackings, car theft, and breaking car windows to steal things begins to happen more in Augusta, I doubt that your gun will solve the problem, because the "bad guys" are just becoming more brazen. That's what is happening in Chicago, New York, Portland, L.A., Seattle, and Washington D.C., now in the good parts of town instead of just gangs doing their business in the South and West of Chicago.

I agree that there should be continued discussions to have good methods (which include due process) to get people who have records of using more force than necessary out of policing (I've seen that happen in Wichita, but it doesn't mean it happens enough). I just think that most police are good people who do their job well. Potter didn't have a history or reputation or using undue force, and she wasn't a "bad seed", but there is no doubt that there are a few cops who shouldn't be cops.


I

I take issue with what you are trying to express (as I’m sure you take issue with my views), which as stated reads, “I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous.”

I don’t believe that laws should reflect morality nor do I believe that all morals are universally held. Any law that is enacted is a threat that if you don’t comply your rights will be violated by the nameless/faceless government; without regard to ANY moral principles.

Rights, OTOH DO reflect morality, and in this country, that morality is freedom. If (and in some circumstances when) the police enforce rights, that is the point at which the police are an overwhelming force of good.

If you prefer a country where moral law is enforced, I would look to Vatican City, Muslim countries, and communist countries and try and implement something similar here. Hopefully it is your morals which are adopted. If you value the freedom to choose your own morals, regardless of those of the majority, then I suggest looking to a country that uses the power of the state to enforce rights.