Defunding/Abolishing Police

[Shockm]

If you get anit-police out of anything said here, you are reading with an agenda and not reading what is actually being said. Are they sometimes put in difficult situations? Sure. Are the majority at risk or put in all that difficult of situations? Not at all.

My job is irrelevant to the discussion. This is such a lame ass and common deflection of the point. Kind of like how some people say we can't comment on a coach and how they're doing their job if we've never coached at the collegiate or professional level. It's bullshit. Not being in a job doesn't mean you have no basis for comment or knowledge of the job and what it entails. And I have stated repeatedly that I have friends in law enforcement and have talked to a number of them on similar issues and we often agree, at least on the basic level of most things. My sister also worked for a PD for a number of years and I've gotten to hear a number of stances from that PD in regards to much of this.

Both of my parents served in the military. As did most of my uncles and a number of cousins as well as one grandparent. The other was denied for some medical reason. And as I have stated multiple times and you have never addressed, why are our military members held to such higher standards in actual combat situations than our police departments dealing with noncombat situations? You seem to think the police have the most dangerous job on the planet, yet statistics don't actually back that up. None of the officers I know have ever woken up and feared they weren't going to return home. I'm sure that may be a valid example though in a few parts of this country that are exceedingly violent, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. And even then, I'm guessing most don't actually feel that way.

Considering the arrest and conviction rate of real crimes is actually pretty low, I'm not sure the police are a great deterrent to most. The smash and grab BS is actually not on the police and instead on the local DAs who have publicly stated they won't pursue convictions and on woke city governments who have made it easy. As wufan has stated though, police generally don't prevent much crime but instead later investigate, maybe, and might eventually find someone.

The best way to prevent crime is to be armed. The police can show up later to take statements of what happened. Being armed does far more to prevent crime than the police do. And nobody is saying we shouldn't have laws, though we have too many BS laws that make criminals out of people who have never victimized a soul, or that they shouldn't be prosecuted.

What I am saying is that cops who break the law, their oath to the Constitution and the civil rights of the populace should be punished. This goes for both good and bad cops.

The bad cops need to stop being protected by departments. That will begin to repair the perception of police departments.

I don't see why any of these statements should be all that controversial and get people so defensive.

The second option that I mentioned above, to anti-police is your being dismissive of the tough job police do in difficult circumstances. The anti-police crowd, do their protesting, while many people who don't believe in policing, just are dismissive of them, and their necessary role in society.

There is a Native-American saying "Don't judge someone else until you've walked in their moccasins". Your statements are very judgmental toward police, and you say nothing about the many possible dangerous daily decisions that they have to make each day, when even a low level traffic stop could become dangerous. Very few jobs require this type of unknown, and I've had family members who are in this type of environment express to me, their daily anxieties (they don't express these concerns to just anyone).

The statement wasn't actually directed just toward you, and I may not have been clear, but the basic idea, I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous. This didn't happen over night. It's been happening for at least 50 years, but in the 90's, there were efforts to put the "bad guys" behind bars. Now, the world seems to be afraid or less willing to do that (thus most of the parolees and criminals who were released early because of Covid were placed in Wichita, instead of K.C. and surrounding areas to Wichita). If car jackings, car theft, and breaking car windows to steal things begins to happen more in Augusta, I doubt that your gun will solve the problem, because the "bad guys" are just becoming more brazen. That's what is happening in Chicago, New York, Portland, L.A., Seattle, and Washington D.C., now in the good parts of town instead of just gangs doing their business in the South and West of Chicago.

I agree that there should be continued discussions to have good methods (which include due process) to get people who have records of using more force than necessary out of policing (I've seen that happen in Wichita, but it doesn't mean it happens enough). I just think that most police are good people who do their job well. Potter didn't have a history or reputation or using undue force, and she wasn't a "bad seed", but there is no doubt that there are a few cops who shouldn't be cops.


I

[SubGod22]

You sound anti-police or at least dismissive of the difficulty of their job.

What is your job?

Did you grow up with your father leaving home each day, and you never knew whether he would return home? I know children of law enforcement who have talked about the fears their mother faced when a shooting of a police officer went out over the air waves. Their mothers often listened on scanners during a dangerous shift. They often feared the worse. Not an easy family existence.

Why would crime ever go back down, now that criminals are making a decision on the risk vs. reward of crimes. Some of the “smash and grab” criminals make $1,000 a day.

If you get anit-police out of anything said here, you are reading with an agenda and not reading what is actually being said. Are they sometimes put in difficult situations? Sure. Are the majority at risk or put in all that difficult of situations? Not at all.

My job is irrelevant to the discussion. This is such a lame ass and common deflection of the point. Kind of like how some people say we can't comment on a coach and how they're doing their job if we've never coached at the collegiate or professional level. It's bullshit. Not being in a job doesn't mean you have no basis for comment or knowledge of the job and what it entails. And I have stated repeatedly that I have friends in law enforcement and have talked to a number of them on similar issues and we often agree, at least on the basic level of most things. My sister also worked for a PD for a number of years and I've gotten to hear a number of stances from that PD in regards to much of this.

Both of my parents served in the military. As did most of my uncles and a number of cousins as well as one grandparent. The other was denied for some medical reason. And as I have stated multiple times and you have never addressed, why are our military members held to such higher standards in actual combat situations than our police departments dealing with noncombat situations? You seem to think the police have the most dangerous job on the planet, yet statistics don't actually back that up. None of the officers I know have ever woken up and feared they weren't going to return home. I'm sure that may be a valid example though in a few parts of this country that are exceedingly violent, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. And even then, I'm guessing most don't actually feel that way.

Considering the arrest and conviction rate of real crimes is actually pretty low, I'm not sure the police are a great deterrent to most. The smash and grab BS is actually not on the police and instead on the local DAs who have publicly stated they won't pursue convictions and on woke city governments who have made it easy. As wufan has stated though, police generally don't prevent much crime but instead later investigate, maybe, and might eventually find someone.

The best way to prevent crime is to be armed. The police can show up later to take statements of what happened. Being armed does far more to prevent crime than the police do. And nobody is saying we shouldn't have laws, though we have too many BS laws that make criminals out of people who have never victimized a soul, or that they shouldn't be prosecuted.

What I am saying is that cops who break the law, their oath to the Constitution and the civil rights of the populace should be punished. This goes for both good and bad cops.

The bad cops need to stop being protected by departments. That will begin to repair the perception of police departments.

I don't see why any of these statements should be all that controversial and get people so defensive.

[ShockTalk]

It is pure speculation and opinion to say that she shouldn't have even used a taser in this situation. That would get blasted by a good defense attorney so quickly it wouldn't even and shouldn't be an issue in this trial. Directly meets the definition of speculation. For every expert who says she shouldn't you can find one who says she should.

My understanding is that came out from that police department's regs based on that situation. It was not my speculation.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

"For a conviction, the state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Potter handled her firearm “recklessly” and showed culpable negligence in her actions that resulted in Wright’s death."

If she shouldn't have had even a taser in her hand, having a gun in her hand was reckless handling. Had the victim had a gun or weapon or there been imminent danger, there would have been no reckless use of a firearm.

It is pure speculation and opinion to say that she shouldn't have even used a taser in this situation. That would get blasted by a good defense attorney so quickly it wouldn't even and shouldn't be an issue in this trial. Directly meets the definition of speculation. For every expert who says she shouldn't you can find one who says she should.

[wufan]

Your numbers are implausible.

Again, the very existence of an armed police force with authority to kill if necessary, stops an innumerable amount of violent acts. Hell, even I would have likely committed a few assaults over my lifetime had there been no threat of Po-Po.

Of course without law enforcement our courts are worthless as who will apprehend the suspects? Your argument explodes on lift-off.

Well, I didn’t make up my numbers. They are refuted, which is why there is such a large range, but if you have better numbers I would be happy to look them over.

[wufan]

I would take your comments to mean you are in the defunding police camp, and having citizens handle criminal activity. I’m not with you on that, but do admit that fear and deterrence of breaking the laws and the lack of concern that kid and adult criminals have pertaining to consequences, jail time, and prison that used to be a part of life is diminishing each year, while gang and criminal activity is growing to younger children each year.

I don’t understand what you are asking/saying.

What I said is pretty clear. Police do not protect people against crime in most instances, rather they come in later to take a report. I don’t consider that to be them keeping me safe. The things they are good at is traffic and drug enforcement, and I’m not a fan of that overall. I do see some benefit, but I think there are better solutions.

Police on patrol and stationed at high crime (violent or personal property) areas is a net good for sure.

I hope I’ve clarified my position so that if you have questions or responses, they will be in line with what I’ve stated.

[C0|dB|00ded]

It’s estimated (and if you can provide better numbers, please do) that police stop 50-100 thousand assaults from occurring annually in the US.

It is known that armed citizens stop at least 200 thousand assaults annually by injury/death and utilize a firearm in self-defense in an incident that does not lead to an injury 2 million times per year.

Your numbers are implausible.

Again, the very existence of an armed police force with authority to kill if necessary, stops an innumerable amount of violent acts. Hell, even I would have likely committed a few assaults over my lifetime had there been no threat of Po-Po.

Of course without law enforcement our courts are worthless as who will apprehend the suspects? Your argument explodes on lift-off.

[Shockm]

This is nonsensical and totally misses my point.

If I am being carjacked or robbed, I will likely lose my car or my possessions. If I survive the encounter I will call the police. They will take my statement and if it was my car, it will likely be recovered in an unrepairable state. My wallet will statistically not be returned. What good have the police done in this case that couldn’t be handled by my insurance or credit card company?

In the case of rape or home invasion, somebody is going to die…either the criminal or me and my family. What good do the police do me in that instance? They will investigate and maybe the next person is spared via an arrest if I didn’t get the job done myself. Even if no one dies…they got the jump on me or I’m not home, the damage is done, they leave and I’m still a victim.

The police do not protect you. It’s time to stop pretending they do.

I would take your comments to mean you are in the defunding police camp, and having citizens handle criminal activity. I’m not with you on that, but do admit that fear and deterrence of breaking the laws and the lack of concern that kid and adult criminals have pertaining to consequences, jail time, and prison that used to be a part of life is diminishing each year, while gang and criminal activity is growing to younger children each year.

[wufan]

The sound of a siren - the mere knowledge that "I've just called the cops", has stopped more assaults/burglaries than could ever be counted. To judge the effectiveness of law enforcement based on their response time is child-like thinking.

If you want to mitigate the response time risk, then sharpen up your situational awareness skills, pick up a potent stun gun, and go over scenarios in your head on how and when you will use it.

It’s estimated (and if you can provide better numbers, please do) that police stop 50-100 thousand assaults from occurring annually in the US.

It is known that armed citizens stop at least 200 thousand assaults annually by injury/death and utilize a firearm in self-defense in an incident that does not lead to an injury 2 million times per year.

[C0|dB|00ded]

The sound of a siren - the mere knowledge that "I've just called the cops", has stopped more assaults/burglaries than could ever be counted. To judge the effectiveness of law enforcement based on their response time is child-like thinking.

If you want to mitigate the response time risk, then sharpen up your situational awareness skills, pick up a potent stun gun, and go over scenarios in your head on how and when you will use it.

[wufan]

The presence of a police force has an immeasurable influence on society. In fact, the psychological effect is so great, some cities park empty police cars in random locations because of it.

WTF did they put in your eggnog? You sound crazier than normal!

And Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas!

This, again, has nothing to do with what I said.

[C0|dB|00ded]

This is nonsensical and totally misses my point.

If I am being carjacked or robbed, I will likely lose my car or my possessions. If I survive the encounter I will call the police. They will take my statement and if it was my car, it will likely be recovered in an unrepairable state. My wallet will statistically not be returned. What good have the police done in this case that couldn’t be handled by my insurance or credit card company?

In the case of rape or home invasion, somebody is going to die…either the criminal or me and my family. What good do the police do me in that instance? They will investigate and maybe the next person is spared via an arrest if I didn’t get the job done myself. Even if no one dies…they got the jump on me or I’m not home, the damage is done, they leave and I’m still a victim.

The police do not protect you. It’s time to stop pretending they do.

The presence of a police force has an immeasurable influence on society. In fact, the psychological effect is so great, some cities park empty police cars in random locations because of it.

WTF did they put in your eggnog? You sound crazier than normal!

And Merry Christmas!

[wufan]

Interesting. So if you are being carjacked, or robbed, your wife or daughter is being raped, or your house if being invaded by gun point, do you call up the institution or the police as individuals? Most police run toward danger either way without regard to their safety and to help keep you more safe.

I'll ask some that I know to see if they feel supported by your differentiation.

This is nonsensical and totally misses my point.

If I am being carjacked or robbed, I will likely lose my car or my possessions. If I survive the encounter I will call the police. They will take my statement and if it was my car, it will likely be recovered in an unrepairable state. My wallet will statistically not be returned. What good have the police done in this case that couldn’t be handled by my insurance or credit card company?

In the case of rape or home invasion, somebody is going to die…either the criminal or me and my family. What good do the police do me in that instance? They will investigate and maybe the next person is spared via an arrest if I didn’t get the job done myself. Even if no one dies…they got the jump on me or I’m not home, the damage is done, they leave and I’m still a victim.

The police do not protect you. It’s time to stop pretending they do.

[Shockm]

I’m not a fan of the police as an institution. They rarely protect, and usually only make arrests “in the act” when the crime is victimless.

Policeman as individuals, I have no issues.

Interesting. So if you are being carjacked, or robbed, your wife or daughter is being raped, or your house if being invaded by gun point, do you call up the institution or the police as individuals? Most police run toward danger either way without regard to their safety and to help keep you more safe.

I'll ask some that I know to see if they feel supported by your differentiation.

[wufan]

You sound anti-police or at least dismissive of the difficulty of their job.

What is your job?

Did you grow up with your father leaving home each day, and you never knew whether he would return home? I know children of law enforcement who have talked about the fears their mother faced when a shooting of a police officer went out over the air waves. Their mothers often listened on scanners during a dangerous shift. They often feared the worse. Not an easy family existence.

Why would crime ever go back down, now that criminals are making a decision on the risk vs. reward of crimes. Some of the “smash and grab” criminals make $1,000 a day.

I’m not a fan of the police as an institution. They rarely protect, and usually only make arrests “in the act” when the crime is victimless.

Policeman as individuals, I have no issues.