Coronavirus 2019-nCoV

[wufan]

Wearing a helmet or not has no bearing on the survival of other parties involved in the crash.

That is a good response!

Why do you wear a seatbelt?

[ShockTalk]

Wearing a helmet or not has no bearing on the survival of other parties involved in the crash.

You're saying a helmet would help the driver causing the crash, but not the driver in a car being hit? Well, if everyone should wear a mask, why not everyone in a car wear a helmet? Look, I understand what your saying, but their are a number of very qualified people saying the cloth masks or non-medical masks don't work very well. I can't find it, but I saw the head honcho at the school for infectious diseases at the University of Minnesota (and highly regarded by his peers) felt the false security a non-medical mask gives people is more dangerous than the benefits it provides. It was on TV (not Fox), but I can't find it on the net.

Add: By the way, I wear a mask where I'm suppose to and also where I feel a little uncomfortable. However, I keep my distance which I feel is most important and take the approach that the mask may help a little.

[pie n eye]

I’m not following you. It’s 50% ineffective. That means that half the people who get the shot also are psusceptible to the flu. It’s a coin flip if exposed for everyone.

Group A contains 12 people, six got a flu shot whose effectiveness is 50%. We all come into contact with a seasonal flu whose reproductive rate is two. 9 of the 12 are now infected. The 6 who received no shot plus three from the shot group.

The next day all members of group A go to a party at a house where a different 50 people live. None of this group B got the shot. Since nine of group A are contagious with a flu whose reproductive rate is two, group A infects 18 members of group B before leaving. The next day those 18 infect 36 of the remaining 42 that didn’t catch it at the party from group A.

Now assume instead that all ten members of group A got the flu shot and therefore only five get the flu originally. When they go to the party they only infect 10 people in population B. So on and so forth.

Obviously this is overly simplified and the reproductive rate of the flu is more like 1.2. The entire process is more complex but hopefully that illustrates how more people getting the flu shot should mean more protection for everyone.

[pie n eye]

You're saying a helmet would help the driver causing the crash, but not the driver in a car being hit? Well, if everyone should wear a mask, why not everyone in a car wear a helmet? Look, I understand what your saying, but their are a number of very qualified people saying the cloth masks or non-medical masks don't work very well. I can't find it, but I saw the head honcho at the school for infectious diseases at the University of Minnesota (and highly regarded by his peers) felt the false security a non-medical mask gives people is more dangerous than the benefits it provides. It was on TV (not Fox), but I can't find it on the net.

Add: By the way, I wear a mask where I'm suppose to and also where I feel a little uncomfortable. However, I keep my distance which I feel is most important and take the approach that the mask may help a little.

I appreciate the response but I’m not sure you or wufan do quite understand the difference between these two things.

If I choose not to wear a helmet or seatbelt in my car the only person whose survival that is going to affect is me.

If I choose not to wear a mask in public it could potentially affect the survival of another person.

A google search provides numerous articles of evidence that even a cloth mask can be effective and is certainly more so than not at all. I have never advocated for mandatory masks because I would think that most people would willingly do a simple thing to help keep their fellow humans safe.

As far as the false sense of security, that comes down to education. Most if not all of the articles I’ve read say that the mask isn’t a replacement for physical distancing, just an additional protection.

[Aargh]

We're going to find out well before basketball season how CV reacts in Sedgwick County. Our County Commissioners opened everything with no restrictions. Restaurants, bars, theaters able to open at full capacity. No social distancing requirements. No masks required We will know within a month to 6 weeks whether we're relatively safe here or whether we're the next hot spot.

If we're relatively safe, we might be able to go full capacity at CKA for the TBT tourney. Sedgwick County is pretty much poking the bear with a stick to see if the bear is alive. I'm optimistic that we'll do pretty well with opening everything back up with no mitigationl.

[pie n eye]

Maybe you should be less judgmental of those that choose differently than you.

Lol that’s rich coming from the person who said...

“that cute piece of **** you mother in law sewed for you doesn't. But she felt really important sewing it, and you feel really safe wearing it. You feel more important and wiser than those who opt not to wear one.”

“You feel smarter than those that opt not to wear a condom with a hole”

[pie n eye]

You'll see a trash can full of bs masks worn by experts required to wear them on campus. The first thing they do when they leave the building is discard them, not for selfish reasons, but because they know they are ineffective. Dealing with pts, they wear n95s, religiously. They dont wear the n95s except for direct covid pts care. They wear crappy stuff you advocate the rest of the time because of policy. Those experts discard the cheap masks exactly at the door because they know that they dont work. My wife included, along with the physicians, none of whom are selfish.

Of course a cloth mask is not going to be effective for someone working directly with covid patients. That’s not how anyone is advocating they be used.

[MoValley John]

Lol that’s rich coming from the person who said...

“that cute piece of **** you mother in law sewed for you doesn't. But she felt really important sewing it, and you feel really safe wearing it. You feel more important and wiser than those who opt not to wear one.”

“You feel smarter than those that opt not to wear a condom with a hole”

Does your MIL sew masks? And you certainly appear, based on your comments to others, to feel superior to those that use the same information to come to a different conclusion.

Furthermore, I'm not judging anyone that wears a piece of **** mask made by their MIL, I just think it's important to truly understand it's very limited efficacy. And yes, old and immunocompromised people are going out in public, ignorantly believing that the mask is their silver bullet. We haven't had church services since March and one organist, and a sacristan, both elderly ladies, tested positive for covid last week. One is sick. Neither left their houses without a mask. They wore them all the time. Both are distraught because the mask was supposed to save them.

Feel good measures often get people hurt.

[MoValley John]

MVJ just wanted to say thanks for the information weeks ago on the treatment you suggested. Not that I've had a reason to use it, but the info you provided allowed me to have an informed and in depth discussion with a family member that is a physician and not only did I walk away a lot more informed on the subject, this family member is not close, and now is a little closer. Win win.

Thank you. Very much.

Thanks. If you want more information regarding hyperbaric oxygen and covid treatment, PM me, I can send you more. Nebraska Medicine just began considering HBO as a treatment. I was talking to a person in their department the other day, and another concern is decontamination of the chambers. Currently, UV light is used to kill covid in rooms. UV light destroys the chamber walls, so another form of disinfectant would be needed.

[pie n eye]

And you certainly appear, based on your comments to others, to feel superior to those that use the same information to come to a different conclusion.

BS. I’ve repeated multiple times that I don’t feel superior or even comfortable wearing the mask.

If every single person correctly wore a cloth mask in public it would reduce the spread of coronavirus. It’s not about how much it protects the individual wearing it, it’s about limiting the **** that we spray into the air when we talk, cough, breathe, etc. There are numerous studies that back up the fact that even cloth masks do that when worn correctly.

[MoValley John]

BS. I’ve repeated multiple times that I don’t feel superior or even comfortable wearing the mask.

If every single person correctly wore a cloth mask in public it would reduce the spread of coronavirus. It’s not about how much it protects the individual wearing it, it’s about limiting the **** that we spray into the air when we talk, cough, breathe, etc. There are numerous studies that back that up.

Um, until today, I never debated you. YOU were the one that began with name calling. So let's talk about who feels superior.

[jdshock]

Group A contains 12 people, six got a flu shot whose effectiveness is 50%. We all come into contact with a seasonal flu whose reproductive rate is two. 9 of the 12 are now infected. The 6 who received no shot plus three from the shot group.

The next day all members of group A go to a party at a house where a different 50 people live. None of this group B got the shot. Since nine of group A are contagious with a flu whose reproductive rate is two, group A infects 18 members of group B before leaving. The next day those 18 infect 36 of the remaining 42 that didn’t catch it at the party from group A.

Now assume instead that all ten members of group A got the flu shot and therefore only five get the flu originally. When they go to the party they only infect 10 people in population B. So on and so forth.

Obviously this is overly simplified and the reproductive rate of the flu is more like 1.2. The entire process is more complex but hopefully that illustrates how more people getting the flu shot should mean more protection for everyone.

Genuinely shocked you had to explain this in detail. Particularly to people who are either fringe related to the healthcare industry or pretend to be very in the know about the science behind all of this stuff. That's the whole thing with vaccines. Most of us need to get them to protect those of us who (i) can't; or (ii) are too stubborn to get them.

Masks are the same. Yeah, they're not the most effective, and I am definitely not getting a surgery where the doctor is wearing a Toy Story bandanna around their face. But they undoubtedly capture some of that spittle, snot, whatever, that happens as a result of being a human. And if most people wore masks, even masks that were 50% effective, it would radically change the game. Even if they're 20% effective, you're going to see differences.

People are not wearing masks because they want to (i) show how "tough" they are and that they're not scared of the virus; or (ii) align with Trump so they can keep making fun of people like Biden who wear masks. It's selfish. There is literally no downside to wearing a mask in most places. Barring the consumption of food or water, why is it so important for other folks to see the bottom half of your face?

[wufan]

Genuinely shocked you had to explain this in detail. Particularly to people who are either fringe related to the healthcare industry or pretend to be very in the know about the science behind all of this stuff. That's the whole thing with vaccines. Most of us need to get them to protect those of us who (i) can't; or (ii) are too stubborn to get them.

Masks are the same. Yeah, they're not the most effective, and I am definitely not getting a surgery where the doctor is wearing a Toy Story bandanna around their face. But they undoubtedly capture some of that spittle, snot, whatever, that happens as a result of being a human. And if most people wore masks, even masks that were 50% effective, it would radically change the game. Even if they're 20% effective, you're going to see differences.

People are not wearing masks because they want to (i) show how "tough" they are and that they're not scared of the virus; or (ii) align with Trump so they can keep making fun of people like Biden who wear masks. It's selfish. There is literally no downside to wearing a mask in most places. Barring the consumption of food or water, why is it so important for other folks to see the bottom half of your face?

I was just wondering where you had gone! Hope you are doing well!

Who on here has said they aren’t wearing masks to show how tough they are, or has praised Trump for his stance? Also, please show me where a mask is 20% effective, or any kind of effective.

I do agree that it slows facial spray, and facial spray is the primary infection vector, but the strongest scientific advocates only state that a mask can act as a type of protection when utilized with social distancing and hand washing, or in the direct care of an at risk individual. So you have three correlations, and no evidence to back it. I would like to see the data before being called selfish.

I could contrast your statement by noting that people only wear masks to (i) signal how much they care about others or (ii) align with Biden so they can shame others...without evidence.

[revenge_of_shocka_khan]

I was just wondering where you had gone! Hope you are doing well!

Who on here has said they aren’t wearing masks to show how tough they are, or has praised Trump for his stance? Also, please show me where a mask is 20% effective, or any kind of effective.

I do agree that it slows facial spray, and facial spray is the primary infection vector, but the strongest scientific advocates only state that a mask can act as a type of protection when utilized with social distancing and hand washing, or in the direct care of an at risk individual. So you have three correlations, and no evidence to back it. I would like to see the data before being called selfish.

I could contrast your statement by noting that people only wear masks to (i) signal how much they care about others or (ii) align with Biden so they can shame others...without evidence.

I would say a number of people. They seem to fall into two groups.

One who think masks are totally useless and seem to want to turn this into a political thing.....like you just did. Republicans include people of color, who have a higher mortality rate than white folks, and cancer survivors who have a mortality rate that is double that of the general population.

The other who thinks they don't need to socially distance (the 'tough guy' crowd jdshock referred to).

This has nothing to do with shaming people, but rather it has everything to do with all of us acting together in a sense of community and looking out for the most vulnerable in our communities.

Heck, I even saw Mitch McConnell say people ought to be wearing masks. Do you think he was shaming others or do you think he was trying to emphasize that sometimes the community does things for the greater good?

And while you are thinking about that, please don't show your political bias. I know we disagree on these things, but if you think about it, Biden is wearing a mask for the exact same reasons. And also (probably) because his wife is a cancer survivor.
EDIT: Jill did not have cancer, apparently I'm mistaken from what I saw, but Beau definitely did and they are active in that community with their charity. That makes them more aware of these risks, especially since Jill is a physician.

[MoValley John]

Masks work..... in a controlled environment. When they test the efficacy of a mask using contaminants being blown through them at a constant rate, they actually work quite well. Particulants, even smaller than what the mask is rated, are captured. But alas, people dont breathe at a constant rate. You would be surprised at the pressure one generates while exhaling. The change in velocities limits their effectiveness. Greatly.

As for the bs jd just spewed, let me link an article from NPR. It is very much written "pro mask" but within the rationale given are these startling tidbits:

They're a "reminder that we need to be taking these precautions and serve as a reminder to people to keep that 6-foot buffer," he says. "It should be seen as a badge of honor.

Klompas agrees — and says that it can also give the wearer a welcome sense of security.

"It feels like you're behind a shield," he says, "and I think that in itself can be reassuring."

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/03/826996154/coronavirus-faqs-is-a-homemade-mask-effective-and-whats-the-best-way-to-wear-one

So..... You have NPR, a source that jd won't question, jumping on the mask bandwagon. They give their slant, but in trying to make their case, they show just how easy it is for people to make them fail, about 99.9% of how you see them being worn.

They also point out that wearing a mask is "A badge of honor." That's what it's really about, a badge of honor, like an aids ribbon, you care a little more.

Then they follow it up with the dumbest, and most dangerous point, that it gives a sense of security. Like being behind a shield. Exactly what I've been saying, immunocompromised and elderly are feeling secure leaving home with a mask on, only to get sick.

So, yeah, I wear a mask when its demanded, but I dont wear one, not because of jd's idiotic projecting of his own rationale, but because they don't work, are at best minimally effective, and the false sense of security that they convey, are actually quite dangerous.

How about this, if you are coughing, sneezing, are congested or just not feeling right, stay the hell home. And when you are out, keep your distance, keep your trips short and have a purpose. I pay with a card and dont touch others, I'm cognizant of my surroundings at all times. That is exactly what I do. I dont wear a minimally effective mask as a badge of honor.