WSU vs. So. Nazarene game thread

[shockmonster]

Cotton career.
...FG%. .44
...2-pt%. .50
...3pt%. .339

Frank amp career
...FG% .372
...2pt%. 453
... 3pt%. .337

Funny thing, perception

This is classless imo. One person who obviously lacked insite compared Cotton to Cedric Coleman as a below average shooter and we tear down current Shockers who are struggling in their shooting.

I and those who know (most Shocker fans) realize that Tekele only struggled early with his 3 point shooting. He became a very good shooter who helped us to the Final 4 because of it. Cotton put the work in and made himself a good shooter by the end of his career.

[Aargh]

Fogler had been an assistant at North Carolina before he cane to WSU. I believe Dean Smith recommended that WSU hire Fogler. Another assistant on that staff was Roy Williams.

I've never been a fan of Fogler. I thought Smith recommended WSU hire Fogler because Smith wanted to get rid of him and he wanted Williams to get a better job. Then I think Fogler learned from that and convinced WSU to hire Cohen so Fogler wouldn't have to fire him.

Fogler arrived in 1986, the same year football disappeared. Lew Perkins (Athletic Director) and Warren Armstrong (The WSU President, not the basketball player) were the most inept and anti-athletics people ever in charge at WSU. Between the two of them, they nearly destroyed athletics at WSU.

[im4wsu]

This is classless imo. One person who obviously lacked insite compared Cotton to Cedric Coleman as a below average shooter and we tear down current Shockers who are struggling in their shooting.

I and those who know (most Shocker fans) realize that Tekele only struggled early with his 3 point shooting. He became a very good shooter who helped us to the Final 4 because of it. Cotton put the work in and made himself a good shooter by the end of his career.

This had nothing to do with Cedric, it was a direct reply or Cdizzle mentioning Nguyen Cotton and Frankamp

[Aargh]

This is classless imo. One person who obviously lacked insite compared Cotton to Cedric Coleman as a below average shooter and we tear down current Shockers who are struggling in their shooting.

I and those who know (most Shocker fans) realize that Tekele only struggled early with his 3 point shooting. He became a very good shooter who helped us to the Final 4 because of it. Cotton put the work in and made himself a good shooter by the end of his career.

Those of us who have paid attention are aware of the progress Cotton made in his shooting - particularly 3FG shooting from year to year. Cotton will not be remembered for his FG accuracy. He hit some critical and crucial 3FG's, but that wasn't his game or what he was known for.

Cotton will be remembered for some of the best poster dunks in WSU history. Cotton will be remembered for getting assigned to defend some of the top-scoring wings in D1 in the NCAA's and Marshall saying about the guy Cotton would be guarding, "He's going to have an interesting night" and then Cotton shut those guys down.

The original comparison showed that Cotton, a player who is best known for his transition game and defense, was actually equal or better than Frankamp from the floor. Frankamp's game is based on his shooting and he has a freaky A/TO ratio because he either doesn't have the phycial ability or doesn't have the confidence to take a risk with the ball or challenge a defense or a defender when he has the ball.

[ShockingButTrue]

From X's hometown

And high school. AC Flora, along with the Praylows. Their coach was a Shocker fan I have to think. John Smith also?

[ShockingButTrue]

Fogler had been an assistant at North Carolina before he cane to WSU. I believe Dean Smith recommended that WSU hire Fogler. Another assistant on that staff was Roy Williams.

I've never been a fan of Fogler. I thought Smith recommended WSU hire Fogler because Smith wanted to get rid of him and he wanted Williams to get a better job. Then I think Fogler learned from that and convinced WSU to hire Cohen so Fogler wouldn't have to fire him.

Fogler arrived in 1986, the same year football disappeared. Lew Perkins (Athletic Director) and Warren Armstrong (The WSU President, not the basketball player) were the most inept and anti-athletics people ever in charge at WSU. Between the two of them, they nearly destroyed athletics at WSU.

When Gene's recruits were gone he (Fogler) was gone. The '87 team had G. Santos, Radunavich, H. Carr, and S. Grayer on the front line. With Diaper Dandy T. Williams from Philly on the bench. Joe Griffin was the point. The '88 and '89 teams had the Praylows, S. Grayer still, and Radunavich still. Joe Griffin was dismissed before the start of Valley play of '89. That left Guffrovich at the point.

In '90, right after Fogler bailed, the remaining Post's were P. Medelson, D. Dugger, L. Kroll :tongue-new:, A. Davis, and R. Conn. Baseline Bums in more ways the one.

BUT, if the Shockers hadn't lost J. Cooper (no argument there), maybe they would have won 18-21 games when he was senior. He was headed towards an MVP type season...

Dark days!

[ShockTalk]

Gaylon Nickerson (NBA), John Cooper, Paul Guffrovich and Joe Griffin were all good players who signed with Eddie.



He actually did an excellent job recruiting at Vanderbilt (look at the roster on his Sweet Sixteen team in his 4th and final season and you will see 4 of his 5 double digit scorers were recruited by him).

At South Carolina, he achieved Top 5 rankings in the AP in his 4th season and 5th season. Asserting he simply road coattails his entire career is incorrect.

He deserves a colossal **** sandwich for recommending Cohen to fill his shoes, but the myth that he couldn't recruit and left the cupboard bare has been both persistent and wrong.

Haven't been on SN since I last posted. As I was the one who started all this, I will add to what others here have already said.

During Fogler's 3 years at WSU, only 2 of his recruits ever started a game - Cooper and Guff. Others eliminated Griffin for me, but just how did that Nickerson recruit turnout. The year he was here, he shot .439/.286/.612 and was not much different with his one year at K St .390/.292/.649. He also had 65 assists, 64 turnovers, and 70 PF in 29 games. I don't care if he played pro ball. Since Fogler gets credit for him that year, who else were his recruits - C. Johnson, Conn, Kroll, K. Clark, Mountford, Dugger? Regardless, 5 of those 7 were gone starting Cohen's 2nd year. I don't know who were walk-ons, but others recruits during his years were Bass?, Thompson, A. Davis, Bell, Felter, Bonds, and Mendelson.

Even though there where a few good players in there, Smithson's players who played a big roll those years were Radunovich (3 years), Hill (2), Grayer (3), Praylow twins (3 each), Santos (1), and H. Carr(1).

Also, I don't care what Fast Eddie did at other schools, just at and for WSU. As said, his "fame" at WSU was by far with Smithson players.

[pinstripers]

Aaron Harris?............no that's not right. 6'7" from Philly

[ShockingButTrue]

The record firmly show's Foglers best year by far was his first. Obviously. It was straight downhill from there...

One of his list of accomplishments, probably safe to assume, on his resume concerning his consulting firm, was restoring WSU to tournament participant status. I haven't checked, and I won't, but I'll bet he did.

[ShockingButTrue]

Ted Williams. 6'10". City of Brotherly Love. Diaper Dan Basketball Classic (high school all-star game) participant. Jeff Jones recruit. Same class as the Georgia high school POY (Grayer).

[pinstripers]

Davis. Aaron Davis

[Play Angry]

Haven't been on SN since I last posted. As I was the one who started all this, I will add to what others here have already said.

During Fogler's 3 years at WSU, only 2 of his recruits ever started a game - Cooper and Guff. Others eliminated Griffin for me, but just how did that Nickerson recruit turnout. The year he was here, he shot .439/.286/.612 and was not much different with his one year at K St .390/.292/.649. He also had 65 assists, 64 turnovers, and 70 PF in 29 games. I don't care if he played pro ball. Since Fogler gets credit for him that year, who else were his recruits - C. Johnson, Conn, Kroll, K. Clark, Mountford, Dugger? Regardless, 5 of those 7 were gone starting Cohen's 2nd year. I don't know who were walk-ons, but others recruits during his years were Bass?, Thompson, A. Davis, Bell, Felter, Bonds, and Mendelson.

Even though there where a few good players in there, Smithson's players who played a big roll those years were Radunovich (3 years), Hill (2), Grayer (3), Praylow twins (3 each), Santos (1), and H. Carr(1).

Also, I don't care what Fast Eddie did at other schools, just at and for WSU. As said, his "fame" at WSU was by far with Smithson players.

This was a really good job of pretending my points were aimed at a post made by you instead of those I quoted :)

Were most of the horses during Eddie's era recruited by Gene? Yep, he inherited a lot of young talent and developed it adequately. Gene did a piss poor job of doing the same during X's final 2 seasons and his swan song following X's departure.

Did Eddie never recruit talented or quality players, as asserted by another poster? He certainly did recruit several. That does not invalidate the point that he largely won featuring the prior regime's recruits.

The Wile E. Coyote cliff-drop of the Cohen era irreversibly poisoned a lot of fans against Fogler and they blame him for the decline since his assistant took the reins. No changing this perception for many, but I disagree with a lot of the myth and lore built into his departure (sucked at recruiting his entire career, actively hated WSU and wanted the worst for the school after his departure, purposely left no talent behind, purposefully recommended a crap assistant to ensure our decline, etc.). Mike Kennedy has fought this same battle to no avail many, many times on the radio over the years as well - Eddie made himself easy to paint poorly in hindsight because he had the charisma and warmth of a Russian winter (which, ironically, is what made Cohen a valuable assistant since he was the "players'" coach on the staff).

The fans' disdain and ire was far more deserved by the athletic department leadership and university administration of that era. Anyone remember the extent of Tom Shupe's search following Fogler's departure?

[Dan]

Davis. Aaron Davis

He sat right behind me at the Final 4 game. He was boxing commissioner of New Jersey at that time.

[ShockingButTrue]

Also, if the guy left for "Filthy lucre." then OK. But J. Turner aside (84 Olympian), Vandy never was, up to then, and since, a better job than WSU. Maybe to B. Packer it was.

As Gene's recruits graduated Foglers X's and O's started to suffer just a little.

He probably put in his consulting firm achievements "Restored a tainted program to tournament legitimacy." You know he did. But, like I said, I haven't checked, and won't. I don't recall what was left at S. Carolina after he exited soon after C. State beat 'em in the tournament. I refer only to his recruiting while he was here, in the Valley.

I don't consider "gettin' while the gettin' was good" malicious in any way. It's just we as WSU fan's, never came close to seeing what he could imprint upon a basketball program. To me, it seems a downward spiral was very much a real possibility, and closer to the truth, as much as future final fours. Based on evidence.

As a Shocker fan, though, I sure loved seeing D. Mannning lose in '87 in H. Levitt. The future looked oh so bright. But soon after...

[pinstripers]

Also, if the guy left for "Filthy lucre." then OK. But J. Turner aside (84 Olympian), Vandy never was, up to then, and since, a better job than WSU. Maybe to B. Packer it was.

As Gene's recruits graduated Foglers X's and O's started to suffer just a little.

He probably put in his consulting firm achievements "Restored a tainted program to tournament legitimacy." You know he did. But, like I said, I haven't checked, and won't. I don't recall what was left at S. Carolina after he exited soon after C. State beat 'em in the tournament. I refer only to his recruiting while he was here, in the Valley.

I don't consider "gettin' while the gettin' was good" malicious in any way. It's just we as WSU fan's, never came close to seeing what he could imprint upon a basketball program. To me, it seems a downward spiral was very much a real possibility, and closer to the truth, as much as future final fours. Based on evidence.

As a Shocker fan, though, I sure loved seeing D. Mannning lose in '87 in H. Levitt. The future looked oh so bright. But soon after...

My guess would be that Vandy paid more at that time.