WSU vs. So. Nazarene game thread

[ShockingButTrue]

My guess would be that Vandy paid more at that time.

I heard trough the grapevine his people contacted their people, and not the other way around.

[Shocker-maniac]

My impression of Fogler during his tenure at WSU can best be summarized as follows: Arrogant and condescending. I always had the impression that he looked down his nose at WSU and especially Shocker fans. I guess it's the dark side of me, but I can't help but think that he recommended Cohen for his position for reasons that were not benevolent. He had to know that Cohen was not in any way fit for a head coaching job. My best guess is that it was an easy way to dump him as he and the rest of his coaching staff moved on to Vandy.

Nothing in this post let's Armstrong, Shupe, or anyone else in the Administration off the hook for a really bad job.

[BostonWu]

I just recall the likes of Rick Conn and Phil Mendelson and I go blank from there...

[another shocker]

My impression of Fogler during his tenure at WSU can best be summarized as follows: Arrogant and condescending. I always had the impression that he looked down his nose at WSU and especially Shocker fans. I guess it's the dark side of me, but I can't help but think that he recommended Cohen for his position for reasons that were not benevolent. He had to know that Cohen was not in any way fit for a head coaching job. My best guess is that it was an easy way to dump him as he and the rest of his coaching staff moved on to Vandy.

Nothing in this post let's Armstrong, Shupe, or anyone else in the Administration off the hook for a really bad job.

oh, fogler knew he was giving wichita state the deep-six. he should never be welcomed back. apologies to mike kennedy, who probably has a raw nerve over the subject.

he kind of got his just desserts when cbs had to deep-six him because of racial comments he made while on air during an ncaa tournament game ( he thought they were off air).

[ShockingButTrue]

My impression of Fogler during his tenure at WSU can best be summarized as follows: Arrogant and condescending. I always had the impression that he looked down his nose at WSU and especially Shocker fans. I guess it's the dark side of me, but I can't help but think that he recommended Cohen for his position for reasons that were not benevolent. He had to know that Cohen was not in any way fit for a head coaching job. My best guess is that it was an easy way to dump him as he and the rest of his coaching staff moved on to Vandy.

Nothing in this post let's Armstrong, Shupe, or anyone else in the Administration off the hook for a really bad job.

He was here in Wichita to -ahem- repair/clean-up our tainted Basketball program (City).

It went a little too far in the way he treated Gene's point guard, all because he (Griffin) wouldn't play nice with G. Mason when we played them here. Maybe Fogler thought Griffin was showing up Guffrovich. Griffin was done and we never looked as good the rest of the year (that was the second game), and the season became rather dark, as I recall.

[Play Angry]

Griffin quit by flying home, telling a Chicago newspaper he'd never come back, and then never addressed his teammates or coach directly. This was midseason.

He also never played a game for Gene.

[ShockTalk]

This was a really good job of pretending my points were aimed at a post made by you instead of those I quoted :)

Were most of the horses during Eddie's era recruited by Gene? Yep, he inherited a lot of young talent and developed it adequately. Gene did a piss poor job of doing the same during X's final 2 seasons and his swan song following X's departure.

Did Eddie never recruit talented or quality players, as asserted by another poster? He certainly did recruit several. That does not invalidate the point that he largely won featuring the prior regime's recruits.

The Wile E. Coyote cliff-drop of the Cohen era irreversibly poisoned a lot of fans against Fogler and they blame him for the decline since his assistant took the reins. No changing this perception for many, but I disagree with a lot of the myth and lore built into his departure (sucked at recruiting his entire career, actively hated WSU and wanted the worst for the school after his departure, purposely left no talent behind, purposefully recommended a crap assistant to ensure our decline, etc.). Mike Kennedy has fought this same battle to no avail many, many times on the radio over the years as well - Eddie made himself easy to paint poorly in hindsight because he had the charisma and warmth of a Russian winter (which, ironically, is what made Cohen a valuable assistant since he was the "players'" coach on the staff).

The fans' disdain and ire was far more deserved by the athletic department leadership and university administration of that era. Anyone remember the extent of Tom Shupe's search following Fogler's departure?

@Play Angry:, I almost always totally agree with your posts so my post was not to take a shot at you, but to discuss all the posts between my 2 posts that pertained to Fogler. That was probably the reason I did "a really good job of pretending" as I knew you were not aiming at me.

I readily admit that I have a negative bias against Fogler. I didn't like the way he handled Sasha regarding his slight of hand move (or is that a slight of knees move). Sasha was not "showing anybody up". To him it was just another "fake" that all good players learn to do in one fashion or another. I'm sure it bothered me more because he was my favorite player at that time. After that, I was much more particular, if you will, about Fogler. I did think he came off arrogant among other things. Maybe some, particularly from opponent fans, think Marshall comes off badly, however, I absolutely love the way Marshall usually handles himself.

Smithson, in his better days, would have done just as much with those teams of the next few years as Fogler did, so he gets no plus or negative from me on that score. I've already discussed my "recruiting" positon.

I think the Griffin thing was handled badly on both parts and it was unfortunate. It did happen after the second game of the season. Griffin was suspended for the Hartford game at which point Griffin notified that he was transferring, but waited to leave until after the school semester was over.

The athletic department and WSU administration did add greatly to the problem, but Fogler had to know what kind of coach, or lack there of, he was leaving us with. I don't think he cared.

[ShockingButTrue]

Griffin quit by flying home, telling a Chicago newspaper he'd never come back, and then never addressed his teammates or coach directly. This was midseason.

He also never played a game for Gene.

Did someone on this board say he played for Gene? I must of missed it.

Anyway, would you bench Griffin in place of Guffrovich? Just curious. The coach made a really baffling decision. How'd it work out with Guff at the point the rest of his career?

And it was 2 games. I was at the G. Mason game and thought they looked pretty good against a decent, at that time, opponent. Things changed radically after that game.

[ShockingButTrue]

oh, fogler knew he was giving wichita state the deep-six. he should never be welcomed back. apologies to mike kennedy, who probably has a raw nerve over the subject.

he kind of got his just desserts when cbs had to deep-six him because of racial comments he made while on air during an ncaa tournament game ( he thought they were off air).

...ahhh, this probably explains the real reason he started Guff over Griffin... I couldn't presume any other reason.

[Play Angry]

@Play Angry, I almost always totally agree with your posts so my post was not to take a shot at you, but to discuss all the posts between my 2 posts that pertained to Fogler. That was probably the reason I did "a really good job of pretending" as I knew you were not aiming at me.

I readily admit that I have a negative bias against Fogler. I didn't like the way he handled Sasha regarding his slight of hand move (or is that a slight of knees move). Sasha was not "showing anybody up". To him it was just another "fake" that all good players learn to do in one fashion or another. I'm sure it bothered me more because he was my favorite player at that time. After that, I was much more particular, if you will, about Fogler. I did think he came off arrogant among other things. Maybe some, particularly from opponent fans, think Marshall comes off badly, however, I absolutely love the way Marshall usually handles himself.

Smithson, in his better days, would have done just as much with those teams of the next few years as Fogler did, so he gets no plus or negative from me on that score. I've already discussed my "recruiting" positon.

I think the Griffin thing was handled badly on both parts and it was unfortunate. It did happen after the second game of the season. Griffin was suspended for the Hartford game at which point Griffin notified that he was transferring, but waited to leave until after the school semester was over.

The athletic department and WSU administration did add greatly to the problem, but Fogler had to know what kind of coach, or lack there of, he was leaving us with. I don't think he cared.

I agree with a lot of this - I know I'm coming off as some big fan of Eddie's, whereas my actual views on him are pretty lukewarm. He did some things very well and others poorly, was a good game coach but was never going to be lifer in Wichita. IMO if we'd had a competent athletic department and a balance sheet north of Enron's he would have stuck around for an extra 2-4 years (similar to Turgeon in tenure) and a lot may have turned out differently, but that's pure guesswork. I do take some issue with the implied malice many fans attribute to him though - it really is just conspiracy theory level stuff.

Did someone on this board say he played for Gene? I must of missed it.

Anyway, would you bench Griffin in place of Guffrovich? Just curious. The coach made a really baffling decision. How'd it work out with Guff at the point the rest of his career?

And it was 2 games. I was at the G. Mason game and thought they looked pretty good against a decent, at that time, opponent. Things changed radically after that game.

Heh, I bet it just slipped your mind that Griffin lost his starting spot to Guff after skipping a couple weeks worth of individual and team workouts and arriving late for a couple practices after that. Eddie rode him hard but still played him 20+ minutes in the first few games, then Griffin told the staff he did not want to be part of the program if he could not start. Fogler responded by temporarily suspending him, and Joe decided to quit rather than remedy his issues.

Guff was a good kid and good player who could have bolted when times got tough, and his spot on the roster at the outset of the Cohen era is no more damning than Coop's - they both were co-stars of an 89-90 team that was picked 2nd in the MVC and instead led the decade long voyage into the septic tank. No need to tear down either of them and frankly it's a little strange.

[ShockingButTrue]

:abnormal:

I agree with a lot of this - I know I'm coming off as some big fan of Eddie's, whereas my actual views on him are pretty lukewarm. He did some things very well and others poorly, was a good game coach but was never going to be lifer in Wichita. IMO if we'd had a competent athletic department and a balance sheet north of Enron's he would have stuck around for an extra 2-4 years (similar to Turgeon in tenure) and a lot may have turned out differently, but that's pure guesswork. I do take some issue with the implied malice many fans attribute to him though - it really is just conspiracy theory level stuff.



Heh, I bet it just slipped your mind that Griffin lost his starting spot to Guff after skipping a couple weeks worth of individual and team workouts and arriving late for a couple practices after that. Eddie rode him hard but still played him 20+ minutes in the first few games, then Griffin told the staff he did not want to be part of the program if he could not start. Fogler responded by temporarily suspending him, and Joe decided to quit rather than remedy his issues.

Guff was a good kid and good player who could have bolted when times got tough, and his spot on the roster at the outset of the Cohen era is no more damning than Coop's - they both were co-stars of an 89-90 team that was picked 2nd in the MVC and instead led the decade long voyage into the septic tank. No need to tear down either of them and frankly it's a little strange.

Has anyone ever told you that you display a dubious talent for putting words in peoples mouths' (don't answer)?

Other than clearly stating that Griffin was a much better point than Guff, which is not debatable, but I presume you'll try, where, or who, tore the young man down? If he could have bolted, as you proclaim, why would this have been so?

No need to read between the lines in this conversation because the facts are pretty -ahem- substantiated. It was Fogler we were discussing. It aint strange to tear him down :o

[Play Angry]

Other than clearly stating that Griffin was a much better point than Guff, which is not debatable

It doesn't really matter since Griffin quit after showing he did not care about Wichita State enough to attend workouts or work his way back into the starting rotation after losing it for two whole games. You are lying by omitting facts and pretending the decision was made based on simple preference, although I get that this narrative supports your argument and is more fun for you.

where, or who, tore the young man down?

Oh, it was you. Sorry for the confusion.

It went a little too far in the way he treated Gene's point guard, all because he (Griffin) wouldn't play nice with G. Mason when we played them here. Maybe Fogler thought Griffin was showing up Guffrovich.

...ahhh, this probably explains the real reason he started Guff over Griffin... I couldn't presume any other reason.

If he could have bolted, as you proclaim, why would this have been so?

Cohen was a terrible coach. I thought an astute Shocker fan and chronic non-troll such as yourself would have known that.



In a related vein, I know it's easy to lay all blame at Fogler's feet for Cohen's hire and I agree he deserves immense criticism for the recommendation and have leveled such criticism on here many times, but really, imagine what on earth kind of athletic director would react to the departure of a good-not-great HC after just 3 years by (i) soliciting his advice for a replacement within certain budgetary restrictions, (ii) receiving said recommendation, evaluating it and deciding "hmmmm...this guy put in several years as an assistant at powerhouse George Washington and three years here. Our previous hire was Dean Smith's top assistant and we're coming off 2 NCAA bids and an NIT appearance, yep this fits the bill," and (iii) hiring the guy (must be top notch for $70k) without even conducting a single formal interview of another candidate. I mean it really is mind-blowing stuff. Sure, there was outside pressure from a certain donor who owned many franchises in a restaurant chain, but there's no way to not level both barrels of blame at the feet of Shupe and the university prez.

[pogo]

Eddie Fogler came here from NC. I'm sure everyone in town was excited just at that prospect. He was going to clear up the image of our team and university.He had to have extensive contacts for recruiting. Initially he recruited some (on paper) outstanding height and talent. He said he wanted kids with brains and would graduate. Great. Our AD and President were horrible. Our facilities were horrible. EF was used to walking into a recruits home with NC on his blazer and have him put his name on the dotted line. At WSU all he got was quizzical looks from recruits. He probably shot high and missed out on many of his wanted players. He was probably very good with X's and O's but he did not have the talent to run it. Initially I had no problem with Cohen being named coach. Fogler took the Vandy job and was quoted as saying the ONLY reason he left WSU was because Vandy was an awsome academic institution and he was an academician at heart. He was at Vandy a short time and then left for that academic bastion of SC. I just believe he realized he couldn't or want to succeed here at WSU and decided to cut his losses and leave. I don't have a problem with that if he was in over his head but don't tell me your leaving for a transparent bogus reason. ie "Don't piss on me and tell me its only raining. ' Fogler had to know Cohen had problems before he recommended him for the HC job but maybe he figured we deserved each other. Really, we didn't recruit Johnny Murdock because the HC couldn't find his house? This is all water under the bridge and doesn't diminish what we went through to finally get to where we are now. Maybe it makes it a little sweeter now after being trod on for so long by others and the valley. Makes it a little sweeter to wake up and know that our University and Athletic Department are enjoying unequaled success. It all just makes it sweeter.

[1972Shocker]

I really have no way to substantiate this but one thing I did hear regarding Fogler's departure from WSU is that his wife really did not care for the Wichita area and wanted to head back East.

As they say happy wife, happy life. And, of course, the opposite is true as well. Fortunately, Lynn Marshall and the kids seems very happy in Wichita.

However, we probably don't attract a Mark Turgeon or a Gregg Marshall to Wichita if it wasn't for the Roundhouse Rennaisance. Thank you again Jim Schaus. Had we not gotten that done hard to say where WSU athletics would be today.

[ShockingButTrue]

It doesn't really matter since Griffin quit after showing he did not care about Wichita State enough to attend workouts or work his way back into the starting rotation after losing it for two whole games. You are lying by omitting facts and pretending the decision was made based on simple preference, although I get that this narrative supports your argument and is more fun for you.



Oh, it was you. Sorry for the confusion.







Cohen was a terrible coach. I thought an astute Shocker fan and chronic non-troll such as yourself would have known that.



In a related vein, I know it's easy to lay all blame at Fogler's feet for Cohen's hire and I agree he deserves immense criticism for the recommendation and have leveled such criticism on here many times, but really, imagine what on earth kind of athletic director would react to the departure of a good-not-great HC after just 3 years by (i) soliciting his advice for a replacement within certain budgetary restrictions, (ii) receiving said recommendation, evaluating it and deciding "hmmmm...this guy put in several years as an assistant at powerhouse George Washington and three years here. Our previous hire was Dean Smith's top assistant and we're coming off 2 NCAA bids and an NIT appearance, yep this fits the bill," and (iii) hiring the guy (must be top notch for $70k) without even conducting a single formal interview of another candidate. I mean it really is mind-blowing stuff. Sure, there was outside pressure from a certain donor who owned many franchises in a restaurant chain, but there's no way to not level both barrels of blame at the feet of Shupe and the university prez.

You said who tore him down, I said you put words in peoples mouths, you didn't show where I put him down. You enjoy taking the time to cut and paste... Saying Griffin was a better point? Are you just looking for an argument or something?

Do you think in Foglers Bio he mentions his first-time effort as a consultant? And when he did so at the time, didn't you agree, if you were really there, along with WSU administrators that Fogler was probably a pretty impeccable guy and new who was qualified and who wasn't (if you catch my drift). If you did, you are part of the problem that was the '90's.

Why are you so hung up on "fakery?" Don't answer (it's rhetorical) :beaten: