HCGM & Football Poll

[shocker3]

According to this article from December 1986 (from the Lawrence Journal World of all places) the average attendance in 1986 was around 9,700 which was the 2nd lowest since Cessna Stadium opened in 1969. I am assuming that was actual attendance since the article reports that 12,000 season tickets were sold mostly to corporations at reduced rates. I have not been able to find any other attendance figures for 1969 through 1986.

Too little income, too much outgo.

The Shocker's 1982 team coached by Willie Jeffries and lead by Prince McJunkins was an okay team although we really did not beat anyone of note.
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/...-schedule.html

I was one of those 12,000 season ticket holders and 1986 was the worst year I remember for attendance at Shocker football games. As I stated earlier I attended pretty much every Shocker home football game (and some away games) from 1976 until the demise in 1986. There was however a lot of optimism among the diehard Shocker football fans that 1987 was going to be a lot better. I guess we will never know now.

But I believe it was a big mistake to have fired Willie Jeffries. I still believe he would have done much better than Ron Chismar and we may have never dropped football in the first place. But again we will never know now.

Oh and it might not have been considered a win of note, but beating KU in Lawrence in 1982 was a lot of fun and made the season as far as I was concerned. It was even better than our win over Kstate in Manhattan in 1985. But they were both a lot of fun.

[shocker3]

[QUOTE=Singeril;657736]

Around 1983-1984, there were several games with horrible attendance---I can remember a game against Illinois State or Southern Illinois (most noted for horrible weather and an Illinois State player running to the wrong end zone) with probably less than 1,000 people in the stands. And, actually, a LOT of WSU area KSU-alums drive up to Manhattan. I've made that drive (and I'm a WSU grad) and have seen countless cars going back and forth on game day. The largest crowd I ever saw at a WSU game was against Tulsa in 1982, a few weeks after WSU beat KU 13-10. The Shockers lost the game vs. Tulsa...had maybe 25K at the game.

I would have been at those games in 1983-84 and I don't ever remember crowds that small unless it was towards the end of the game and we were losing badly. Maybe people left early during that Illinois st game because of weather but I don't remember it. As I recall that Tulsa game in 1982 had about 28,000 and there were several games that year that were in the 20,000 range. As I recall, we averaged over 22,000 a game that season.

Somewhere in my house (probably in boxes in the attic) I have old football programs from the 80s and media guides. Although for some reason I remember that I don't have the 1986 media guide. The newest one I ever had was from 1985. But if I could find it, I am sure it would have attendance figures for all the previous years.

[1972Shocker]

I was one of those 12,000 season ticket holders and 1986 was the worst year I remember for attendance at Shocker football games. As I stated earlier I attended pretty much every Shocker home football game (and some away games) from 1976 until the demise in 1986. There was however a lot of optimism among the diehard Shocker football fans that 1987 was going to be a lot better. I guess we will never know now.

Yeah, I had 2 of those season tickets myself. I don't recall being especially optimistic but that was probably due to the overall apathy of Shocker and area fans towards Shocker football. Very hard to say what would have happened had President Armstrong not pulled the plug. Maybe it would have worked out or maybe we would now be a member of the MIAA getting our asses kicked by Pitt State or worse.

If they bring back Shocker football I think there would obviously be some excitement initially. Whether or that that initial excitement could be sustained is hard to say. In any case, I am looking forward to hearing what the consultants have to report. IIRC ticket prices in that 1976 to 1986 time frame were quite reasonably priced. They had to be if I had two of them.

[Veritas]

[QUOTE=Singeril;657018]If football were brought back at this point, you'd have a campus-wide revolt. The university has faced, and will face more huge budget cuts. There is a freeze on spending and hiring freezes have been discussed if not implemented. Simply put, the university cannot responsibly implement a football program at this time.[/QUOTE

Sounds like you have a biased agenda trying to get an increase in pay.

[Singeril]

[QUOTE=Veritas;657780]

If football were brought back at this point, you'd have a campus-wide revolt. The university has faced, and will face more huge budget cuts. There is a freeze on spending and hiring freezes have been discussed if not implemented. Simply put, the university cannot responsibly implement a football program at this time.[/QUOTE

Sounds like you have a biased agenda trying to get an increase in pay.

Huh? You'd better get a new hearing aide---you auditory capabilities are sadly taxed. When you have entire departments that aren't allowed to fill open teaching positions or effectively recruit due to a lack of personnel, it has nothing to do with raises. As I've already stated, there is a hiring and spending freeze. What a strange summation you have made!

[Veritas]

[QUOTE=Singeril;657782]

Huh? You'd better get a new hearing aide---you auditory capabilities are sadly taxed. When you have entire departments that aren't allowed to fill open teaching positions or effectively recruit due to a lack of personnel, it has nothing to do with raises. As I've already stated, there is a hiring and spending freeze. What a strange summation you have made!

What's reading have to do with hearing? Your remarks read as if I struck a nerve. There are always naysayers such as yourself who don't believe in expansion, growth, etc... You need to relocate to a more provincial town/university where you will feel comfortable. You're probably a decent person; just perhaps a small thinker without any vision.
Do you teach at WSU?

[Veritas]

[QUOTE=Singeril;657736]

Around 1983-1984, there were several games with horrible attendance---I can remember a game against Illinois State or Southern Illinois (most noted for horrible weather and an Illinois State player running to the wrong end zone) with probably less than 1,000 people in the stands. And, actually, a LOT of WSU area KSU-alums drive up to Manhattan. I've made that drive (and I'm a WSU grad) and have seen countless cars going back and forth on game day. The largest crowd I ever saw at a WSU game was against Tulsa in 1982, a few weeks after WSU beat KU 13-10. The Shockers lost the game vs. Tulsa...had maybe 25K at the game.

Singeril, Your biased agenda is making you lose credibility on whether to bring football back to WSU. You and Shocker3 seem to have an internal argument taking place. Can't figure out who is posting and who is responding between the two of you.

(Apologize: iPhone was combining quotes- my fault)

[Singeril]

[QUOTE=Veritas;657785]

Singeril, Your biased agenda is making you lose credibility on whether to bring football back to WSU. You and Shocker3 seem to have an internal argument taking place. Can't figure out who is posting and who is responding between the two of you.

Veritas, you have no idea what you're talking about concerning what I think. Just what is this fantasy bias agenda that you think I have? I'm a HUGE supporter of WSU athletics and have been for nearly 40 years. I'm an alum and support the athletic department. My comments, however, are not about the athletic department. They are about a university facing massive cuts (they've already gone through one round) and have even bigger ones possibly ahead. Again, positions aren't being filled which is putting a heavy burden on departments. Who says I don't believe in expansion and growth? I'm all for it....responsible expansion and growth. The IC is a great idea...nearly entirely privately funded. But a new football program would cost too much at this time...that's not growth. Because I state that there is going to be HUGE dissent if an expensive program is added to the university, one that is not fully privately funded and will require the resources of many departments (that aren't being funded fully at this point), you think that I'm biased? No credibility? I'll put my credibility regarding this issue up against anyone's. Internal argument? What am I internally arguing about? If you can't follow the posts, that's not my problem. Just read close. And don't make vast and very inaccurate judgements. It's not a nerve that has been struck...not in the least. It is trying to provide a perspective that isn't just, "Let's do it", before seeing how other departments are hit...after all, it is a university. I'm all for sports...I'm all for HCGM...I'm all for even having football again...but I'm not for the mission of the university and its departments being compromised. Football will NOT be a revenue producing sport at WSU. The Title 9 ramifications are enormous. There are way too many issues other than just wanting the boys to lace up the cleats.

[Singeril]

"Sounds like you have a biased agenda trying to get an increase in pay.[/QUOTE]

Veritas--you said the above line----SOUNDS relates to HEARING---not READING or SEEING--hence the comment on needing a hearing aide when you're not hearing the sounds correctly. As far as your comment about Shocker3, I don't have a clue what you're talking about.

[Veritas]

If football were brought back at this point, you'd have a campus-wide revolt. The university has faced, and will face more huge budget cuts. There is a freeze on spending and hiring freezes have been discussed if not implemented. Simply put, the university cannot responsibly implement a football program at this time.

You write of a "campus-wide revolt" and " cannot responsibly implement a football program at this time."

Campus wide to me equates to little or no support. I don't believe your position.

You additionally under stated attendance figures at past WSU games. To me it seems you have an agenda against WSU football without an understanding of the decision making process. To me you lack an objective viewpoint of the issue at hand. Your hyperbole on lack of attendance or writing of a campus-wide result, or insinuating the university would be irresponsible equates to a negative agenda against the University.

There is nothing wrong about small time thinking. But there is something wrong about embellishing in order to make a point.

Jim Schaus: “I believe investment equals return, in that you get what you pay for."

The crux of the matter for me is where do we get the biggest bang for the buck and continue to drive growth and opportunity.

[Singeril]

"Campus wide revolt"---revolt may have been a strong word---I'll give you that. I'll change the word permanently to dissent. Revolt does NOT however mean "No Support"---this isn't a war. It is an institution of higher learning where many factors and important departments are at hand...not just the athletic department--although, it is the most visible. I will state that, if the baseball team was having a more acceptable run of years, you wouldn't be hearing as much about football. And, actually, campus wide, I do not sense a ton of support for football. I'm for it--but, implementing it, at this time, would face wide spread dissent.

I don't know for sure that I have understated figures at past WSU games--and, after all, we are talking 30+ years ago. The fact is, attendance and support was low enough for the program to go down. And, I do very well remember that game with the low attendance. Yes, weather was horrible...the game meant nothing. But, there are many places where weather does NOT bring down the attendance all that much. I attended many games and was only happy to see the size of the crowd a handful of times...maybe my standards of what is a large crowd are a bit higher? That's not a slam. But I think an average crowd of 15,000 is pretty poor in a 30,000+ seat stadium. Again, football at WSU is not revenue producing---FAR from it. Now, I know it's not a revenue sport at many institutions...but it is part of a well rounded program that brings value to the university...at WSU, it wasn't that for a LONG time back in the 80s and late 70s---save for 1982 when the schedule was weak and we had one game that brought a lot of pride to Hillside and 17th.

Now you can think I "have an agenda against WSU football"--think what you want---you're entitled to do that...however, you're absolutely wrong. I only want what is best for the university. I do understand the decision making progress. This is NOT a new and unique situation. There are a lot of issues that have to be addressed, explored, etc. I don't see where WSU can have a winning football team for at least 10 years and gain the long term and solid backing it needs from many rears in the seat on a regular basis. Plus, ultimately, it will be on a small scale platform in relation to other Division I Schools. There is football competition in town and throughout the State that wasn't the case years ago when the "Mildcats" were on their run. We have no rivals in football either. I don't really want to see us start a program so that KU will finally schedule us in a sport other than baseball. That's getting sad enough as it is. And, seeing the dismally minute crowds at WSU baseball games these days is a bit embarrassing. I'd hate to see the same kind of thing at football games in an even larger stadium.


Objective viewpoint? Again, a false assumption.

Negative agenda against the university? You are really bad at your assumptions. I love WSU and am a huge supporter. I'm one of its biggest cheerleaders in the city and beyond. You have no idea.

It's not small thinking--it's sound thinking. There is a problem with trying to be something you're not too quickly. And ANY Administration NEEDS to have dissenters in order to build correctly. That's just basic business common sense. I sure as heck don't want only people that think the same way I do helping me run my business.

In order to invest, you have to have the funds.

At this time, we don't have the bucks to make a bang. We need to FIRST take care of what we have and support it before going off and taking on more. Sound things up FIRST--THEN go after football. I'm all for that---bring it on!!!! Bring on Football--but not at the expense of cutting other things first. THAT would NOT be sound investment.

[Singeril]

I guess my bigger point is that we should strive for excellence in all things--at a University, in all of our academic programs, in our athletic department. NOT mediocrity. A football program at WSU was never consistently excellent--or even close to it much of the time. Sure, there was a catastrophic portion of our history that we still mourn. But, long before and long after that tragedy, football was not and never became a consistently excellent program. Unless the program is completely supported campus wide, city wide, and beyond, it won't be excellent. It is hard to ask people to support a program that would not be excellent--especially when other programs that are doing fine jobs are being under supported and compromised. It's really pretty simple. Just look how well EXCELLENT programs are supported on campus---basketball, theater, engineering, business. The support is strong and wide. Football wasn't and isn't all that widely supported....there is much doubt as to the benefits for the university and the city. MUCH infrastructure, personal and facility wise, would be needed. Even more dorm space would potentially be needed. Until all of this is worked out, in VERY stressful economic times at the University (and the faculty receive reminders of the times often from the Administration) you aren't going to see a lot of support for a football program from many. After these times, bring it on.

[im4wsu]

I will state that, if the baseball team was having a more acceptable run of years, you wouldn't be hearing as much about football.

What? Do you know those are entirely different sports played in entirely different seasons?

[QUOTEAnd, actually, campus wide, I do not sense a ton of support for football. I'm for it--but, implementing it, at this time, would face wide spread dissent.][/QUOTE]

There may or may not be support campus-wide. If there were 20% support from students, that would be approximately 7,000 students. That could be a very nice base to attendance.

Is there dissent or would you envision dissent only if implementation were to begin now?

I don't see where WSU can have a winning football team for at least 10 years and gain the long term and solid backing it needs from many rears in the seat on a regular basis.

Stating it makes it so? Wichita is in a hotbed of JUCO football. Bill Snyder did it with JUCOs for years. It is tougher to do now, but with two classes filled with JUCOs and then blending HS kids with JUCOs for 3-4 years, the potential is there to develop a pretty solid squad rather quickly. Will it happen? Possibly not, but possibly so.

I love WSU and am a huge supporter. I'm one of its biggest cheerleaders in the city and beyond.

Just how much do you weigh?

It's not small thinking--it's sound thinking. There is a problem with trying to be something you're not too quickly.

Facts (supposedly) from wikipedia: 1992, a study was done on Cessna Stadium to comply with I-A football standards. It was shown that $24 million in improvements were needed.^[14] In 1997, the cost was cited at $11 million to restart the football program and three other women's sports.^[15]

In 1998, an advisory committee at Wichita State recommended reinstating the football program at Wichita State after a 15-month study for $70,000.^[16]

In 2006, Wichita Mayor Carlos Mayans proposed to use public funds to restart the football program at Wichita State. He would subsequently drop the plan weeks later.^[17][18]

In 2012, an attempt was made to begin a club-level football team at Wichita State with hopes of eventually reviving the football program, though no official endorsement was given by the university.^[19]

I don't really want to see us start a program so that KU will finally schedule us in a sport other than baseball.

KU would have to give us two in Wichita to one in Lawrence.

In order to invest, you have to have the funds.

Got one right, here.

At this time, we don't have the bucks to make a bang.

Bet you were willing to let 3G go, too. We certainly didn't have the bucks on those occasions and the baseball program was floundering then, too. so that is bad Bad planning and decision-making, right? Is it safe to say you are not a visionary?

We need to FIRST take care of what we have and support it before going off and taking on more. Sound things up FIRST--THEN go after football. I'm all for that---bring it on!!!! Bring on Football--but not at the expense of cutting other things first. THAT is sound investment.

What do we have that is not being supported? Baseball -- but based on paid attendance, we're probably still a top 25-35 program, but admittedly in a downward spiral. Surely you're not suggesting that WBB must get 7,000 fans on the average before we can bring back football? Are you talking golf attendance? T&F?

What things are being cut? Oh, the band scare thing? That will work itself out. What else is being cut?

Back to campus wide dissent. Do you believe there would be campus wide dissent if there were, say, $75,000,000 devoted exclusively to football that were available from sources that are in addition to the funds that are currently involved with WSU and WSU athletics? If football were guaranteed by these outside investors to not take or divert a single dollar or cut a single program from the current WSU footprint, would you then consider that a bad investment?

btw, WSU is not cutting things. They are growing, expanding. Look at the Innovation campus! Building a football program and the additional sports required by Title !X might be considered as an investment in growing and maintaining the Innovation Campus concept as one of the few of its kind in the country/world. How? Say in 6-10 years we could be competing sufficiently to not be excluded from major conference talk. That would be huge. Recall that one amazing streak by our basketball team -- one season -- was valued at $555,000,000 to our university in equivalent public recognition/advertisements. I'm not saying that will happen if we have football, but just the discussions that football entitles to become a part of could very well enhance the overall perception of WSU, which affects engineering, music, the Innovation Campus, aerospace, entrepreneurship, etc.

Without the vision of Jim Schaus, we might still be struggling to avoid the play-in games in St. Louis. Without the vision of Gene Stephenson, there would be no baseball team or wonderful facilities. Top drawer. Without the vision of Dan and Frank Carney, we'd all weigh a bit less, I imagine. Without the vision of those who met last spring to commit upwards of $14,000,000 over 7 years (length of 3G's contract), we might have Steve Eck as our head coach.

I cannot predict what the study will reflect as to the viability of football at WSU. I do believe that WSU has bright enough minds to consider the facts, evaluate the needs and blend those needs with others the university has, and the vision to design and implement a plan that has optimum chance to ensure a great future for WSU and WSU athletics.

[Singeril]

im 4 WSU (as am I)---

Post is getting long---sorry for the length---I'm just going to cut the quotes to make it more concise--I can easily jump up and down in the thread to make sure I'm hitting on your points without quoting.

Duh---concerning baseball being in the Spring---support is horrible at this point. But, when you have diversions for the campus and for the students/city in more than one part of the year, the rancor over other things that are missing is less at other times. This is even stated by the Administration. There is no Fall diversion, and, currently, no Spring diversion. That is part of the impetus behind this...as has been mentioned before.

20% support from the students...I'm not sure that would even be possible...noting that their student fees would go up wouldn't be popular. WSU has a changed student clientele from 30 years ago with a larger population of international students (and with a smaller general student population than when I was a student). I'd love to see that much student support---but, just how great is that student support in basketball season? We've already seen and heard all the complaints about students not filling the seats for their allotted tickets at basketball. That argument doesn't come close to washing.

All of those studies ended up with the same result--no football. They didn't rush then...no football came forward after taking the look. Why should we rush now unless you're wanting unsound decisions? One has to assume, after those studies of 10-25 years ago, that things haven't changed all that much.

I don't think you'll see KU coming to WSU to play football any quicker than you will find them coming to play basketball.

Was not willing to see HCGM go--different issue. But, it was HIS decision as to whether he would go or not. I support him on that, regardless. I'm glad the money pockets people stepped up--it doesn't cost the university.

Visionary? Depends what you call a visionary. I envision the university fulfilling its commitments to all of the students and fulfilling its stated mission for the educational community as well as the city. Then, I support the extra-curricular activities that enrich us.

You're confusing my issue of "support" as being only about sports, for the most part. I've stated otherwise, fairly clearly and definitely consistently. But, again, there is a hiring freeze in place at the university. You have positions in various departments that are NOT being filled which puts a burden on others and keeps them from effectively doing the jobs as completely as they once could. There is a spending freeze that is keeping some departments from spending money on recruiting and basic necessities and activities that enrich the university and help it grow. How can you ask for these freezes to stay in place while spending millions of dollars on new programs that won't benefit the people being froze out? How do you get their support?

I think you're talking about "Shocker Sound" when you mention the "band scare thing". Student funding stopped supporting Shocker Sound which required the Athletic Department to step up---which was the goal in the first place. The Athletic Department has only made a partial commitment to see the band sustained...I hope it continues. But, supporting Shocker Sound and a football marching band are two entirely different things from a financial standpoint. I'm not sure the Athletic Department is going to go for that.

The hiring and spending freeze is campus wide.

If $75,000,000 was committed to support the football program from PRIVATE funding, I'd have no problem with that in the least. And, there would have to be a continued PRIVATE funding foundation in place that would not require the university to kick in school finances until there was a clear and sustainable program in place. No programs of any kind at the university, or academic programs, should be facing further financial instability due to the institution of a football program...that's pretty simple.

When you say WSU isn't cutting things, you're not looking at the complete picture or are lacking complete information. Those aren't the facts. The Innovation Campus is great---mostly privately funded. Building buildings and bringing on private investment for the programs in those businesses is great---but other programs are facing difficulties due to lack of funding and cuts. Fix the current financial crisis---things completely change as far as sentiment. Again, it's that's simple.

I'm fully aware that a successful basketball program has benefited the university...Go Shockers!!! Thrilled about that--I've suffered through the bad times and rejoiced at the good---right now we are in the good and I hope it continues..and for more than just financial reasons. But, you're right not to expect those results from a football program for some time---I say, ever. I know you can't give me the answer to this--but just how many Division I or I-AA football programs are money makers? In all those years WSU had football, how much notoriety did it bring the school? We all know what football event gained the most notoriety for WSU. Did the notoriety of our football program bring a financial windfall? Did it bring prestige to the university? What's different? Do not those other programs that you mentioned bring the appropriate recognition to the university? Does the university not deserve the respect for those programs as well or is it just basketball (which I love) and a potential football program? A baseball program that has been on the skids for quite awhile? And, with that huge $550,000,000 windfall, the university is still having to freeze hiring and have a spending freeze? I don't even know when the last time the faculty received raise or how often it has happened...I do know that it doesn't happen every year or even every few years. Does the entire university benefit from that basketball windfall--when the entire university is asked to support the program? Does the support go both ways?

WSU has GREAT baseball facilities--some of the best. I'm proud to see the stadium. I'd be more proud to see a lot more fans in the seats--and a team on the field that was bringing recognition to the university. Be excellent---the people will come.

I have no doubt that WSU does indeed have the right people considering the facts and doing the evaluating. I'm all for that.

As far as my "guarded weight" and cheerleading---let's just say that I'm never allowed on the top of the pyramid. Cute moment, though. Thanks for that.

[im4wsu]

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