2016-2017 Starting PG Poll

[choida]

I usually lurk here but I feel compelled. CF certainly knows what is going on in Marshall's system and has a high basketball IQ, but if he can't hit his 3's, he doesn't have a place on the floor. Koch Arena jitters be damned, he's been practicing in that gym for a year now. Landry is going to start, CF at the 2 (in my opinion) for the following reasons:

Frankamp seemed to be extremely hesitant this year, which I hope is a byproduct of deferring to Ron and FVV. In the limited action Landry saw, he seemed to handle the ball well, made good decisions, didn't turn it over, and could penetrate; not much hesitation. This leaves Frankamp at the 2 which will hopefully lead to open looks from 3 and/or Frankamp ISO on the perimeter, put the defender on skates, pull up jumper (which looks beautiful and natural for CF).

In my opinion, we need someone that can create their own offense (you all remember a guy named Cleanthony?). While Conner isn't Cle, he certainly has the ability to make space and hit a contested jumper. PG isn't the position we want an instant offense guy at (evidence being this year when Ron would disappear and Fred was stuck carrying an all too heavy load).

In my opinion the starting 5 looks like this next year:

Landry, CF, Zach Brown, McDuffie, Shaq.

Meaningful minutes from Kelly, Daishon Smith, Peyton Allen and Rauno. Ty Taylor transfers out.

The only question mark in my mind is the 4/5 position specifically on the defensive end. It amazes me that both of our bigs were 6'8" non-rim-protectors, and we had the best defense in the country by far. Adding a guy that can protect the rim while giving Shaq a breather would be monumental for us, I do believe (think Ehimen Orupke). Shaq needs to "harvest some of that mass" into muscle, work on endurance, and he is going to be a great junior and senior.

Now to get banned from ShockerNet......

Ron and Fred arguably had their worst seasons this year (statistically and via the "eye test"). They controlled the offense, which would be fine, but it was chronically lethargic all year. Ball screens at the perimeter until the shot clock is under 10 seconds and were scrambling to get up a shot. How many times did we see it this year? Our offense was downright bad and FVV and RB were running the show. Ron specifically seemed to change his game this season to more fit what he would be doing in the NBA (ISO, step backs, turn around jumpers... a lot of 1-on-1). Whereas in previous years he attacked the basket, ran the floor, and knocked down big shots. Fred was hurt at the beginning of the season, so I get it, but by March, we shouldn't be struggling to hang 50 points on UNI. It is unacceptable at this point in where the program is at. Part of issue (again, this is all just my opinion, put your pitchforks away) was that the younger guys didn't want to mess it up for RB and FVV, so they deferred to them on offense, which magnified the flat, no movement offense we seemed to always get stuck in. I think a good portion of Frankamp's issues with confidence this year stem from deferring to Ron and Fred to run the show offensively as opposed to playing his game (which was desperately needed when we were on 4 minute + droughts).

For these reasons I think we get better next year. No lofty expectations, guys shouldn't be pressing as much.

Obviously leadership and the intangibles will hurt, but team defense is the name of game, and I don't think that falls off by losing who we lost. The concern with losing Ron and Fred should be an offensive concern, and our offense was just embarrassingly bad this year.

I love Ron and Fred, they gave me some of my most cherished basketball memories ever, but it is a new day in Wichita and I think our younger guys blossom without the ominous cloud of pressure to succeed looming overhead.

Hopefully Landry was hanging on every one of Fred's words this season and soaked as much as possible.

I agree on most points... So when is my ban coming?

[shockmonster]

I expect us to lose more games we shouldn't, whether we are better or not. Fred and Ron won games they were supposed to at an unbelievable rate.

This is right. Fred and Ron were unbelievably tough. They rarely laid turds. Next years team will be good but be ready for a few turds during the learning process. A losing streak or two may be a part of learning.

[WheatShocker2]

@choida: I got in an argument with several die-hard WSU fan's about this very thing during the UNI loss at CKA. Granted, emotions were high, but it almost ended a friendship or two.

"It's like you don't even like Ron!"

[asiseeit]

Yep, I misspoke - sorry about that. CF has been to two dances not sweet sixteens. Until someone
else proves he is the better alternative I still believe he plays there out of necessity. Hoping that isn't
the case cause I believe he will be a dangerous two guard now that he is out of the shadows of two
legends.

[WheatShocker2]

This is right. Fred and Ron were unbelievably tough. They rarely laid turds. Next years team will be good but be ready for a few turds during the learning process. A losing streak or two may be a part of learning.

Were you guys watching the games this year? Several turds were laid.

[kcshocker11]

Were you guys watching the games this year? Several turds were laid.

The majority of loses came when FVV was out or playing at less than 100%. They lost to no team with a bad RPI. So please explain your definition of laying a turd. One other thing this team fought through alot of adversity this year, still made the Big Dance and won a couple games.

[pie n eye]

My favorite part about next year is that I truly don't know what to expect. With Fred, Ron, and Evan running the team I knew we had the ability to compete with anyone in the country. So expectations were always fairly high for me. More often than not they met those expectations. And if they didn't? Who cares, I'm just some guy on a message board. My disappointment doesn't matter. Regardless, they always competed no matter what.

Next year is going to be exciting because along with those players go the expectations. Not that they shouldn't or won't set lofty goals for themselves but having 2 legendary Seniors on their last ride would tend to create a lot of pressure to perform. Some days they handled it, some days they didn't. Either way the gained valuable experience. Now it's a new set of guys turn to be the leaders of the program. I really like the group of returners and I'm excited to see what the newbies bring to the table.

The program is in good hands. We won't fall like the KU, Creigton, and Valley haters hope we will. It's going to be another fun ride.

[Heinro]

Were you guys watching the games this year? Several turds were laid.

In your own mind. We lost 3-4 injury riddled, we lost to Seton Hall on the road and we lost to UNI twice. I could give you Illinois State. Otherwise almost all of our losses were to NCAA teams; UNI should be preparing for a sweet 16 match up right now. If any of those losses are your idea of turds, I do honestly believe you will be banging your head against the wall next year.

[choida]

Were you guys watching the games this year? Several turds were laid.

Turds or not, until we move to a conference where wins help and losses don't kill, then Marshall needs to crack the Arch madness code

[shock]

I agree a lot with this post EXCEPT the highlighted part. I can't remember a single game where Fred "gave up". I'm hoping that was just poor choice of wording from you. I also think we take a step back, but not a fall back. You don't lose that leadership on the floor without struggles. I'm just hoping the basketball gods are nicer to us next year and we get a few breaks/bounces/rolls to go our way.

I meant it as worded. I think it was ISUr, but at the end of the game he had a frustration foul, had AWFUL body language and either fouled out or was yanked. It was the only game where I was actually disgusted with Fred. It was embarrassing.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

The majority of loses came when FVV was out or playing at less than 100%. They lost to no team with a bad RPI. So please explain your definition of laying a turd. One other thing this team fought through alot of adversity this year, still made the Big Dance and won a couple games.

In @WheatShocker2: 's defense, our worst two regular season losses were late in the year with Fred and Anton at 100% and with Conner eligible. While a loss at ISUr and home to UNI are not worthy of full turd status, I see his point.

[WuDrWu]

In @WheatShocker2: 's defense, our worst two regular season losses were late in the year with Fred and Anton at 100% and with Conner eligible. While a loss at ISUr and home to UNI are not worthy of full turd status, I see his point.

And with this thinking, every home and conference loss is a turd. Perfection is the expectation, anything less, a failure. :good:

[shockmonster]

Drake, and Bradley would have been good examples of laying turds. We had some conference contenders UNI was one who laid these turds. My prediction is that next year, we will lose more road games than we have in 5 years. Some of you will be grumbling, and throwing fits but I predict it will happen. You will wish for the days of Fred and Ron then.

[ShockdaWorld]

And with this thinking, every home and conference loss is a turd. Perfection is the expectation, anything less, a failure. :good:

Now you sound like the selection committee.

[WheatShocker2]

The majority of loses came when FVV was out or playing at less than 100%. They lost to no team with a bad RPI. So please explain your definition of laying a turd.

UNI loss x 2, ISU loss come to mind immediately.....

EDIT: I understand every conference poses it's own challenge, but when we have 2 AA's and unbelievably high expectations, those games come off as turds. Tournament Committee doesn't care to hear our reasoning for dropping games to bad teams, legitimate or not.