2016-2017 Starting PG Poll

[choida]

Trying to understand where you're coming from, it seems like you're defining a "miss" to be any player recruited who does not end up starting at WSU for whatever reason. To make a judgement as a "miss" on kids who don't make an impact in their freshman year and then transfer for their own well-being is very harsh, IMHO. Particularly when they go on to have good careers at other schools. Kids like Joe Mitchell, Jake White, Derail Green. Waiting to see on Henderson, Holland, Glass. The point being that it took JT Durley, Paul Miller, and many many others several years to develop into what is probably called a "hit." Attrition happens at most every school and very often it is good for both the player and the program.

Miss as in they don't fit the system or leave due to lack of playing time...

[IndianaShocker]

We need more hits and less misses... I get that recruiting is about getting as much potential talent as possible and see who fits your system...

Even Kentucky has a 10th, 11th, and 12th man. Only so many can play regardless of who is on the team. We have more than enough talent to continue on our path as one of the elite non P5 basketball teams in America.

[IndianaShocker]

I expect us to lose more games we shouldn't, whether we are better or not. Fred and Ron won games they were supposed to at an unbelievable rate.

I agree with this.

[asiseeit]

1. CF probably understands GM's demands better than anyone
2. CF spent his whole HS career beating double teams with dribbling and passing
3. CF had five TO's in 470 minutes against D1 competition
4. CF is the best shooter of all the candidates
5. CF has played in two S16's now
6. CF will start out at PG unless LS becomes the better alternative that would free CF for the two guard

[ShockdaWorld]

Two S16's? When and where?

[im4wsu]

1. CF probably understands GM's demands better than anyone

What is you basis for sayin he understands more than Shaq, Kelly, Markis, Nurger, or any other returning Shocker?

2. CF spent his whole HS career beating double teams with dribbling and passing

We're talking about D-1, now. Opponents are bigger and faster and overall better than what he faced in high school. Is he better?

3. CF had five TO's in 470 minutes against D1 competition

Fact.

4. CF is the best shooter of all the candidates

Brown .456, Shamet .438 (small sample size, but eye test supports it),McDuffie .426,Simon .391. Frankamp .388.

5. CF has played in two S16's now

What? More like ZERO Sweet 16 appearances

6. CF will start out at PG unless LS becomes the better alternative that would free CF for the two guard

Or Smith or Reaves or Taylor or....

[choida]

1. CF probably understands GM's demands better than anyone
2. CF spent his whole HS career beating double teams with dribbling and passing
3. CF had five TO's in 470 minutes against D1 competition
4. CF is the best shooter of all the candidates
5. CF has played in two S16's now
6. CF will start out at PG unless LS becomes the better alternative that would free CF for the two guard

5&6 please explain

[Shock Top]

They only way CF doesn't start is if One of Allan/Keyser/Smith play well enough to force CF to the bench.

CF will look closer to high school CF next season than current college CF.

[Cdizzle]

This thread: The only way one player won't start is if another player is better and starts instead.

Brilliance.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Welcome to the offseason. Yay.

[wu_shizzle]

CF will look closer to high school CF next season than current college CF.

While there isn't statistical evidence to point to, I believe this to be true as well.

[WheatShocker2]

I usually lurk here but I feel compelled. CF certainly knows what is going on in Marshall's system and has a high basketball IQ, but if he can't hit his 3's, he doesn't have a place on the floor. Koch Arena jitters be damned, he's been practicing in that gym for a year now. Landry is going to start, CF at the 2 (in my opinion) for the following reasons:

Frankamp seemed to be extremely hesitant this year, which I hope is a byproduct of deferring to Ron and FVV. In the limited action Landry saw, he seemed to handle the ball well, made good decisions, didn't turn it over, and could penetrate; not much hesitation. This leaves Frankamp at the 2 which will hopefully lead to open looks from 3 and/or Frankamp ISO on the perimeter, put the defender on skates, pull up jumper (which looks beautiful and natural for CF).

In my opinion, we need someone that can create their own offense (you all remember a guy named Cleanthony?). While Conner isn't Cle, he certainly has the ability to make space and hit a contested jumper. PG isn't the position we want an instant offense guy at (evidence being this year when Ron would disappear and Fred was stuck carrying an all too heavy load).

In my opinion the starting 5 looks like this next year:

Landry, CF, Zach Brown, McDuffie, Shaq.

Meaningful minutes from Kelly, Daishon Smith, Peyton Allen and Rauno. Ty Taylor transfers out.

The only question mark in my mind is the 4/5 position specifically on the defensive end. It amazes me that both of our bigs were 6'8" non-rim-protectors, and we had the best defense in the country by far. Adding a guy that can protect the rim while giving Shaq a breather would be monumental for us, I do believe (think Ehimen Orupke). Shaq needs to "harvest some of that mass" into muscle, work on endurance, and he is going to be a great junior and senior.

Now to get banned from ShockerNet......

Ron and Fred arguably had their worst seasons this year (statistically and via the "eye test"). They controlled the offense, which would be fine, but it was chronically lethargic all year. Ball screens at the perimeter until the shot clock is under 10 seconds and were scrambling to get up a shot. How many times did we see it this year? Our offense was downright bad and FVV and RB were running the show. Ron specifically seemed to change his game this season to more fit what he would be doing in the NBA (ISO, step backs, turn around jumpers... a lot of 1-on-1). Whereas in previous years he attacked the basket, ran the floor, and knocked down big shots. Fred was hurt at the beginning of the season, so I get it, but by March, we shouldn't be struggling to hang 50 points on UNI. It is unacceptable at this point in where the program is at. Part of issue (again, this is all just my opinion, put your pitchforks away) was that the younger guys didn't want to mess it up for RB and FVV, so they deferred to them on offense, which magnified the flat, no movement offense we seemed to always get stuck in. I think a good portion of Frankamp's issues with confidence this year stem from deferring to Ron and Fred to run the show offensively as opposed to playing his game (which was desperately needed when we were on 4 minute + droughts).

For these reasons I think we get better next year. No lofty expectations, guys shouldn't be pressing as much.

Obviously leadership and the intangibles will hurt, but team defense is the name of game, and I don't think that falls off by losing who we lost. The concern with losing Ron and Fred should be an offensive concern, and our offense was just embarrassingly bad this year.

I love Ron and Fred, they gave me some of my most cherished basketball memories ever, but it is a new day in Wichita and I think our younger guys blossom without the ominous cloud of pressure to succeed looming overhead.

Hopefully Landry was hanging on every one of Fred's words this season and soaked as much as possible.

[Shock Top]

This thread: The only way one player won't start is if another player is better and starts instead.

Brilliance.

Just hoping to be considered for an AC job with 3Gs one day!!

[choida]

They only way CF doesn't start is if One of Allan/Keyser/Smith play well enough to force CF to the bench.

CF will look closer to high school CF next season than current college CF.

Because Marshall couldn't figure out a way to use Frankamp with baker and van vleet on the roster? I envisioned getting a lead in a game in the first half and bringing Frankamp's offense in to help extend a lead... We didn't have the Rebounder's this year like years past, this is just a vent, but like others have said I'm looking forward to next year's team, a fresh reload... Like making a new drink,

[WuDrWu]

My comments were based on years of playing, coaching, and observing this game.

So are mine.

If you believe 2016 was the pinnacle, well I'm sorry but we were CBI level on offense.

Actually I know 2016 wasn't the pinnacle. None of us know if they will ever exceed the recent success. My point was simply don't expect to get better for any reason other than blind hope. There are no tangible and or realistic reasons to believe next year's team will be better.

So do you think its a pipe dream and IRRESPONSIBLE to expect our offense will be better than CBI level next season?

To "expect"? Yes, I think it's irresponsible for a fan to expect that, undeniably so. A pipe dream? Maybe that's a little strong. But even then, it would be laughable to argue that next year's team should be expected to be anywhere near as good defensively.

None of these thoughts mean the team cannot be. My point is that it's unreasonable to expect it. I'll bet Drake fans think they're going to improve enough to compete for a Valley Championship. It's not unreasonable to hope, it's unreasonable to expect, given the facts.

Ron & Fred are leaving this program in better shape than when they arrived. And next years team will show that.

No argument from me. They certainly have. But we have little to no point guard experience and no true power forward with offensive skill. Now, I'm the one that has and will argue that this program can fall back A LOT and still dominate the Valley.

Let's face it, we won 16 games by an average of 20 points. Everyone could close 15 points, and they'd still be 16-2 or near. But to be better, there's almost no room for error and to expect a team with NO seniors to be that locked in for 40 games is a bit much. No, it IS IRRESPONSIBLE.

Our season next year, good or bad, is not a reflection on Ron nor Fred. It will be a reflection of the 2017 players and coaches. We have kids that are special. Especially special in the MVC.

Don't sell our 2017 team short.

I don't think anyone said it will be a reflection on Ron and Fred. And I don't think I'm selling the team short. I'm just saying don't expect the unreasonable.