Redshirt

[CBB_Fan]

Thanks coach...good luck!!!
lol

Not sure what you are laughing about. The stuff about guys affecting the rotation is just common sense.

Oh wait, it was probably the whole "basketball is about height and athleticism."

It is. Sure, not every 6'8" center is worse than every 7'0" center, but every inch hurts. An inch means less wingspan, less muscle to build on, less reach for blocks, etc. It affects every part of the game. We are a better defense team with Early/Hall/Orukpe on the court than with Wiggins/Early/Orukpe (and definitely with Wessel as the SF), and we aren't necessarily worse offensively.

Let me put it this way. No one will be afraid of a lineup that goes:

6'0"
6'2"
6'5"
6'8"
6'8"

You know who can field line-ups that size? DII schools, like Emporia or Pitt State. A high major team would have a size advantage at every position, and that means that our players have to be that much more athletic/skilled to keep up. Lose the athleticism, and they pretty much have to be Da Vinci with a basketball to compete. Size and athleticism don't just mean more flashy dunks, it means bigger bodies on defense and quicker lane adjustments, blocks, and the ability to make moves that wouldn't work against a taller, faster opponent.

If our lineup is:

6'0"
6'2"
6'8"
6'8"
7'0"

Then WE are the ones forcing those mismatches. The opponents have to worry about making up for our advantages, not the other way around. They have to say "can our short SF keep Early from going crazy?" or "Will Orukpe be able to just dunk over our center?" Those questions are good. Besides which, our defense is better with Orukpe in the game. He denies the lane very well (despite his fouls), and with Armstead, Williams, and Early on the perimeter we are in good shape.

Yes, Early is playing a lot of PF in practice, but that doesn't mean he is only going to be a power forward in game times. He will have to play some, but we are better team with him at SF than PF, IMHO. A lot of things can push him to PF though (Lufile's injury, Wiggins or Wessel getting better, Orukpe still looking lackluster), and at least the first is probably an explanation for why he is playing so much PF in practices. It doesn't make sense for him to play a ton of SF when he'll be forced to play PF most of the time (Hall and EO splitting at center). I still would be surprised if EO doesn't start.

[pinstripers]

EO redshirted a year at juco. That is exeedingly common.

I'd be surprised if Early could have learned two positions already.

[pinstripers]

The question isn't Orukpe vs Hall. It is Orukpe vs Wiggins.

If Wiggins is getting it, and is good enough to start, then it makes more sense to go Wiggins/Early/Hall than Early/Hall/Wiggins. Otherwise, your frontcourt is better with Early/Hall/Orukpe. Especially if Wessel is really your next best option; Wessel/Early/Hall is worse than Early/Hall/Orukpe.

And while Early has yet to get major minutes at the three in practice, that is majorly dependent on whether or not Orukpe and Lufile can get enough minutes to man the center position. With Lufile injured, that cannot happen. Hall can play either the 4 or the 5, while EO can only play the 5, and Hall is definitely the more important player of the two. If Lufile is likely to be injured at the beginning of the season, it shifts the line-up around so that Hall plays the majority of his minutes at the 5.

And yes, I feel EO has enough defensive impact to up our chances of success. This is basketball, and more height/athleticism is almost always a good thing. Without him in the line-up, we are a small team (typical mid-major size) instead of a large one.

actually, it's Orukpe vs the World !!!!!!

[wufan]

Wiggins and Lufile attended twoJucos, however they still have two years of eligibility and both could redshirt. You dont have to sit out when transferring fromJuco to Juco, therefore, didn't have to reshirt in Juco

Lufile attended three JUCOs. See here:

http://northpolehoops.com/2012/04/25/chadrack-lufile-joins-fellow-canadian-nick-wiggins-at-wichita-state/

Wiggins attended prep school and then two JUCOs. I incorrectly beleived he had redshirted at Vincennes his first year. Wiggins can redshirt, but he is already old for his class.

[SHOXAAC]

Not sure what you are laughing about. The stuff about guys affecting the rotation is just common sense.

Oh wait, it was probably the whole "basketball is about height and athleticism."

It is. Sure, not every 6'8" center is worse than every 7'0" center, but every inch hurts. An inch means less wingspan, less muscle to build on, less reach for blocks, etc. It affects every part of the game. We are a better defense team with Early/Hall/Orukpe on the court than with Wiggins/Early/Orukpe (and definitely with Wessel as the SF), and we aren't necessarily worse offensively.

Let me put it this way. No one will be afraid of a lineup that goes:

6'0"
6'2"
6'5"
6'8"
6'8"

You know who can field line-ups that size? DII schools, like Emporia or Pitt State. A high major team would have a size advantage at every position, and that means that our players have to be that much more athletic/skilled to keep up. Lose the athleticism, and they pretty much have to be Da Vinci with a basketball to compete. Size and athleticism don't just mean more flashy dunks, it means bigger bodies on defense and quicker lane adjustments, blocks, and the ability to make moves that wouldn't work against a taller, faster opponent.

If our lineup is:

6'0"
6'2"
6'8"
6'8"
7'0"

Then WE are the ones forcing those mismatches. The opponents have to worry about making up for our advantages, not the other way around. They have to say "can our short SF keep Early from going crazy?" or "Will Orukpe be able to just dunk over our center?" Those questions are good. Besides which, our defense is better with Orukpe in the game. He denies the lane very well (despite his fouls), and with Armstead, Williams, and Early on the perimeter we are in good shape.

Yes, Early is playing a lot of PF in practice, but that doesn't mean he is only going to be a power forward in game times. He will have to play some, but we are better team with him at SF than PF, IMHO. A lot of things can push him to PF though (Lufile's injury, Wiggins or Wessel getting better, Orukpe still looking lackluster), and at least the first is probably an explanation for why he is playing so much PF in practices. It doesn't make sense for him to play a ton of SF when he'll be forced to play PF most of the time (Hall and EO splitting at center). I still would be surprised if EO doesn't start.

First off CBBF, I apologize if you felt I was laughing at anything you wrote. The lol was totally in jest because just like your most current post, the previous one sounds like coach-speak...that's all. I love your passion for our SHOX...I do. You seem hell bent on size being the common denominator to success. That is where we differ.

My point is simply this. Whether we have injuries or not, Hall is our 5 who dominates the minutes. Why not EO dominate those minutes, or at least get half of them? Because regardless of the fact he is 7-foot and can run like a deer, EO is a liability if he plays more than about 12 minutes per game (give or take a couple).

He can block shots at a rate we as Shocker fans have never seen before. I don't dispute that. Believe it or not many of the shots he altered last year went in for the opposition. And because he lacks BBIQ and experience (not his fault), he goes after shots an experience shot blocker wouldn't, which gets him out of position, therefore exposing the very territory many on this board thinks he commands just because he is in the game. As was proved at Shocker Madness his on-ball defense isn't even average for a player his height and athleticism. And because his offense is, well, almost non-existent...he is a liability.

He will be a nice asset in very short spurts...which will add up to about 12 minutes per game. He has done absolutely nothing in his first two seasons to predict the kind of production you and others on SN predict. Being 7-foot and a monster athlete does nothing unless the reward is reasonably predictive to warrant the 20 minutes many think he will garner.

[SHOXAAC]

Lufile attended three JUCOs. See here:

http://northpolehoops.com/2012/04/25/chadrack-lufile-joins-fellow-canadian-nick-wiggins-at-wichita-state/

Wiggins attended prep school and then two JUCOs. I incorrectly beleived he had redshirted at Vincennes his first year. Wiggins can redshirt, but he is already old for his class.

As we all know...you don't recruit Juco players to red shirt them. There are always exceptions, but none of our Jucos will red shirt. Part of the price with recruiting them is living with what you get in terms of how quickly they adapt to the new system. We know HCGM's system is complicated. Wiggins' learning curve might be a little longer than some of the others. We will just have to live with it. Hopefully he makes strides in the next couple of weeks...it might take a month...or two, but he will get it. And when he does it will make us way more dangerous.

Let me just throw out this observation about red shirting. There has been much discussion about the idea that Wessel and White should have red shirt last year. Based on summer practices/workouts/scrimmages and Shocker Madness, the consensus is Wessel and White are much improved. Heck, many have predicted both could start...who knows. What if their rate of progress up to this point is related to them not red shirting last year. Going through the motions each and every day knowing they might play. Suiting up each game home and road. Going through the same routines in practice, film study, etc...Maybe, just maybe that experience may have them further along this year than if they would have red shirted. Just something to chew on.

[ShockTalk]

I'm guessing that VCU will be the best team we face during our first 4 regular season games. They lost their top scorer in Bradford Burgess (6'6"). The next 6 players in ppg and mpg go 6'9", 6'4", 6'2", 6'3", 6'5", and 6'2". Their hot shot freshman, Jordan Burgess is 6'4". The only other player seeing minutes is a 7'er playing 15 mpg and scoring 3.2 ppg. I think going 6'8", 6'8", 6'5", 6'2", 6' would do just fine. A bigger lineup might be too slow.

By the time our 5th game rolls around will be 3 weeks from now. I think I'd hold Green out until that time to maybe make a decsion.

[CBB_Fan]

First off CBBF, I apologize if you felt I was laughing at anything you wrote. The lol was totally in jest because just like your most current post, the previous one sounds like coach-speak...that's all. I love your passion for our SHOX...I do. You seem hell bent on size being the common denominator to success. That is where we differ.

My point is simply this. Whether we have injuries or not, Hall is our 5 who dominates the minutes. Why not EO dominate those minutes, or at least get half of them? Because regardless of the fact he is 7-foot and can run like a deer, EO is a liability if he plays more than about 12 minutes per game (give or take a couple).

He can block shots at a rate we as Shocker fans have never seen before. I don't dispute that. Believe it or not many of the shots he altered last year went in for the opposition. And because he lacks BBIQ and experience (not his fault), he goes after shots an experience shot blocker wouldn't, which gets him out of position, therefore exposing the very territory many on this board thinks he commands just because he is in the game. As was proved at Shocker Madness his on-ball defense isn't even average for a player his height and athleticism. And because his offense is, well, almost non-existent...he is a liability.

He will be a nice asset in very short spurts...which will add up to about 12 minutes per game. He has done absolutely nothing in his first two seasons to predict the kind of production you and others on SN predict. Being 7-foot and a monster athlete does nothing unless the reward is reasonably predictive to warrant the 20 minutes many think he will garner.

That's for being courteous. I took the "lol" as a derisive statement.

My position is that Hall will be dominant rebounder/scorer regardless of whether he technically plays the 4 or the 5. I don't think he's the competition that EO has to face because I think we are better with them both on the floor. The difference will be at the small forward position, not the center position. Hall plays no matter what, but he will do so either as a 4 or a 5, leaving space for either a SF or C (Early taking the 4 spot and giving up the 3 spot). Who at SF is more fit to play than Orukpe? I think Wiggins is behind the game on adjusting to D1 ball, and I'm afraid for our team if Wessel one of our 5 best players (no offense, but he's a energy rotational man, see Kevin Young at KU).

The problem with Orukpe out is that we start to look very small at every position (except PF, which will always be 6'8"). With Orukpe in, it isn't just that we have a big center. It's that Hall gets to line up against PFs, Early gets to line-up against SFs, and maybe in odd lineups Wiggins would be in at SG. Every player is athletic enough to play a smaller position, so we create a lot of mismatches on both sides of the ball. Orukpe makes mistakes, but he is also intimidating; that intimidation factor is worth as much as the shots he blocks because it forces the opponent out of the paint. The only thing that can really help him is game-time, and I think he is our 3rd big (Hall>Early>Orukpe>White>Lufile) on the depth chart. He should start each half and play in spurts, but I think he gets 14-16 minutes of game time.

[CBB_Fan]

I'm guessing that VCU will be the best team we face during our first 4 regular season games. They lost their top scorer in Bradford Burgess (6'6"). The next 6 players in ppg and mpg go 6'9", 6'4", 6'2", 6'3", 6'5", and 6'2". Their hot shot freshman, Jordan Burgess is 6'4". The only other player seeing minutes is a 7'er playing 15 mpg and scoring 3.2 ppg. I think going 6'8", 6'8", 6'5", 6'2", 6' would do just fine. A bigger lineup might be too slow.

By the time our 5th game rolls around will be 3 weeks from now. I think I'd hold Green out until that time to maybe make a decsion.

You have to take into account the way teams create mismatches, especially on defense. Marshall does not press like Shaka Smart loves to, and they both have reasons for doing things their way. I'm assuming this is somewhat as a response to my "Size is good" statement," so I'll try to respond like it is.

VCU has speed, and shooters. Playing half-court basketball like Wichita State would not be a good strategy for them because the mismatches they'd have as a smaller team would completely negate their advantages. Instead, they coach to use their mismatches against their opponents, using their speed to wreck havoc on the press and then using 3s to negate any interior advantage for the opponent. Because they don't have size, they needed athleticism and skills to compete.

With a smaller team, you have to be more skilled or more athletic than your opponent (preferably both) to have an advantage. Of course, if you have height and length, AND are more athletic AND have more skill, you are essentially guaranteed a win. Nothing the opponent can do will force the mismatches that would give them an advantage. They can't beat you inside, they can't press you, they can't drive around you, and they can't out-shoot you. This is where I'd like to be.

Unless, of course, you'd like to see Marshall abandon his usual coaching style (half-court based), press all the time, and try to run/shoot every opponent out of the gym. But again, the point is to abuse match ups. I don't think Armstead/Williams/Wiggins/Early/Hall gives us the same mismatching advantage that Armstead/Williams/Early/Hall/Orukpe would. We aren't set up to play VCU ball, but we are set up to have a really great defense and good offense using a more traditional game plan.

[wufan]

Does CE have the skill and athleticism to play the wing? Yes.

Does CE have the knowledge on offense and defense to be effective? Not sure.

[CBB_Fan]

Does CE have the skill and athleticism to play the wing? Yes.

Does CE have the knowledge on offense and defense to be effective? Not sure.

This is probably a good point. Experience has to be gained through trial and error though. I think on offense he'll be fine (good shooting touch, can drive), but defensively he may not know Marshall's plan well enough. Besides which, he is a PF until Lufile comes back from his injury.

[vancedave56]

I too see EO starting and playing around 16 minutes per game. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

[Aargh]

He can block shots at a rate we as Shocker fans have never seen before. I don't dispute that.

That is true.

Believe it or not many of the shots he altered last year went in for the opposition.

That is not correct. When EO was involved in defending the hoop, the opponents shot well under 50%. As most post players hit close to 60% close to the hoop, EO was taking points off the opponents - in addition to when teams just gave up going inside against him.

And because he lacks BBIQ and experience (not his fault), he goes after shots an experience shot blocker wouldn't, which gets him out of position, therefore exposing the very territory many on this board thinks he commands just because he is in the game.

This is partly right. EO goes after some blocks that take him out of position for rebounding, but I don't recall many times (if any) that a player took a shot EO attempted to block and then the "shooter" passed to a teammate EO had abandoned to block the shot. That's just not a problem.

As was proved at Shocker Madness his on-ball defense isn't even average for a player his height and athleticism.

I'm going to make a wild guess that Carl Hall (who plays against Orukpe every day in practice - and is a pretty polished inside scorer) might have a bit of an advantage over others who don't see Orukpe every day. No matter how well Orukpe might be scouted, other teams simply don't have anyone who can play "scout" as if they were Orukpe. Just because Hall got some points against him doesn't mean that VanDeest or Echenique are going to do that.

And because his offense is, well, almost non-existent...he is a liability.

Orukpe scored the first 4 points (for either team) in Shocker Madness. Then the D adjusted. Once the D adjusted, White lit it up. Orukpe can be stopped, but from what he showed at Madness, the D has to cheat a second front court player to prevent his getting a step to execute either the baby hook or a dunk. He has a tendency to go to his right off the block. If he can develop a left-side move and a fake, he can be nearly unstoppable going to the hoop because of the quickness he has in his first step.[/QUOTE]

He will be a nice asset in very short spurts...which will add up to about 12 minutes per game.

Where is it written that the short spurts will be 4 minutes on the court and 6 minutes off? Is there anything to indicate it couldn't be 4 minutes on followed by 2 minutes off? That would result in 20+ minutes a game.

He has done absolutely nothing in his first two seasons to predict the kind of production you and others on SN predict.

Paul Miller was commonly referred to as Fifi in his Jr. year. Many SN posters were convinced Stutz would be a bust in his Sr. year. I was laughed at when I predicted he could go for 16 and 8 in his Sr. year - and he did that (or really close to it) in Valley play. Big guys often have Sr. years that eclipse anything they've prior to the Sr. year.

Being 7-foot and a monster athlete does nothing unless the reward is reasonably predictive to warrant the 20 minutes many think he will garner.

Now you're just typing to be typing. That sentence makes absolutely not a bit of sense.

There's no way to know today whether my optimistic outlook or your pessimistic outlook will be the correct perspective by the end of the year. The last 3 decent post players WSU have had were Troy Mack, Paul Miller, J.T.Durley (?? - converted PF), and Garrett Stutz. Guess what all those guys had in common?

[tropicalshox]

A very good senior year.

[SHOXAAC]

The Kool Aid stand is open for business.

It's funny Aargh, you use words like true, partly right, correct, wild guess as though your word is the gospel just cause you say so. And trust me I'm not delusional to think my words are any better. But then you say "where is it written" about segments of minutes. Well, where is it written that Aargh has the corner on the predictive accuracy of EO's fate this season?

Just out of curiosity, what statistical numbers do you think his 20, 22, 24 minutes will produce? I'll hang up and listen.