Coaching Changes

[Shockm]

I would say that the team with Landry at the helm, under achieved at least least partially because of the offense they were forced to run.

That team was really good for most of the year, and as a season ticket holder a fun year. We defeated Cincy on the road, but we lost a close one at home to Cincy (that was decided on a last shot by Landry) with the American League Championship on the line, lost a home game to SMU on a last second 34 footer, and lost to Houston in another close one in the American Tournament. We were Top 10 most of the year, but the Marshall game ended the year in a disappointing fashion and that game was underachieving.

[SubGod22]

We ideally need both. We need the athletes that can get in the lane and finish or pass out to the ones that are just knock down shooters. Right now our knock down shooter is also the one that needs to get into the lane.

That's why I said a player or two and not a teams worth. I love crazy athletes that can attack the rim, but you absolutely have to have those shooters on the outside to keep teams honest. Few of our best athletes attack the rim and as you stated, our best shooter is one of the few that can put the ball on the floor and attack. Ricky is the other that can do it well, but is also one of our best shooters (in limited attempts). Dex should be able to do both, but is mostly hesitant to attack and has been very streaky as a shooter.

Nothing wrong with having a Graham Hatch type of player. Decent but not awe inspiring athlete, but can play solid D and knock down open jumpers. Also busted his ass and would mix it up.

It also definitely helps if you have a PG that can create those opportunities for shooters as well. I do think Porter can be a PG like that, but also has to take and hit shots when there. He showed to be a pretty good drive and dish guy earlier in the season.

[pie n eye]

Personally I don’t think we really need some new revamped offense. We got plenty of open shots this year, good post ups for Mo, and drives to the basket resulting in free throw attempts.

At some point you have to make the open shots and we didn’t really do that consistently.

Ricky was the only player to shoot over 40% from three this year but he only attempted 27.

Tyson, Dexter, and Alterique attempted the most threes on the season. Tyson was good at 39%. Dexter shot around 34% which is solid if he was our third or fourth best three point shooter. Gilbert was 29%. Nobody else on the team shot over 32% from three.

If you shoot that poorly it doesn’t matter what offense you run.

[Topshock]

That team was really good for most of the year, and as a season ticket holder a fun year. We defeated Cincy on the road, but we lost a close one at home to Cincy (that was decided on a last shot by Landry) with the American League Championship on the line, lost a home game to SMU on a last second 34 footer, and lost to Houston in another close one in the American Tournament. We were Top 10 most of the year, but the Marshall game ended the year in a disappointing fashion and that game was underachieving.

It was a great year and I enjoyed watching them. Also broke Baylor's non-conference home winning streak. Us and Baylor are two programs that have trended in different directions since then.

While the offensive numbers were good on that team, I have always felt that with a different offense, with those players, they could have been final four special.

[ABC]

Wasn't it Frankamp that took the last shot in the home game vs Cincy?

[TheShocktocles]

Personally I don’t think we really need some new revamped offense. We got plenty of open shots this year, good post ups for Mo, and drives to the basket resulting in free throw attempts.

At some point you have to make the open shots and we didn’t really do that consistently.

Ricky was the only player to shoot over 40% from three this year but he only attempted 27.

Tyson, Dexter, and Alterique attempted the most threes on the season. Tyson was good at 39%. Dexter shot around 34% which is solid if he was our third or fourth best three point shooter. Gilbert was 29%. Nobody else on the team shot over 32% from three.

If you shoot that poorly it doesn’t matter what offense you run.

Gilbert 29% 3 point shooting is disgusting . And I have not looked at his free throw percentage but most pg at WSU at a minimum shoot 70% or better. The shocks need to get more out of the pg regardless who it is. Go shocks

[pie n eye]

It was a great year and I enjoyed watching them. Also broke Baylor's non-conference home winning streak. Us and Baylor are two programs that have trended in different directions since then.

While the offensive numbers were good on that team, I have always felt that with a different offense, with those players, they could have been final four special.

I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it. They had the #4 rated KP offense that year. I looked back 10 years and it would have been top five in each of those years as well.

Offense is not what held that team back from being final four special, it was their defense. 111 in defensive efficiency is nowhere near good enough to make a final four unless you have the greatest offense of all time, maybe not even then.

[molly jabali]

My apologies for that false accusation. I'm frustrated because WSU has been running this stand-around offense for years now. They either have a ball-stopper at PG, or guys who drive the lane then don't know what to do when they get there. There is no movement. When they were making deep tourney runs, they were the consummate ball movement/extra pass team. They haven't been that way in years. I want to see the ball move, I want to see the offense move, I want to see them find wide open shots. This is the reason I'm way outside the box on finding ways to make that happen. And, no, I don't think IB is the guy to make that happen. Also, I thought WSU had no choice but to part with Marshall for full disclosure. This program needs something new, not just recycled 3G coaches and philosophy. The offense has been pretty gross for a while now.

I agree with the frustration about lack of ball movement....has it JUST been lack of Fred, or were either Jans or Heier offensive gurus, or something else?

[Topshock]

I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it. They had the #4 rated KP offense that year. I looked back 10 years and it would have been top five in each of those years as well.

Offense is not what held that team back from being final four special, it was their defense. 111 in defensive efficiency is nowhere near good enough to make a final four unless you have the greatest offense of all time, maybe not even then.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one as we have for years now, LOL

[shock]

Wow. I’m amazed at how quick people forget the Clevin Hannah and Joe Ragland years.
The stand around offense started post Landry. If you remember the events of Landry’s sophomore year, Gregg said he never had a team refuse to play defense before so he told them to play it their way. He lost the team. The next year he had several new players and had to vanilla the offense because the players just weren’t getting it. Not being able to install the full offense (it took three years at the beginning of his tenure to get it fully installed) due to the complexity and players refusing to be coached led to the stand around offense that people have attributed to all Gregg Marshall was able to accomplish.
WSU had every success because of Gregg. None of it happens without him. The final four run and the undefeated season happened because those players played the exact way Gregg wanted and ran his system perfectly. It’s the exact same system every team before them ran.
This business of trying to minimize the impact the Gregg had on the program because people can’t stand his personality needs to stop. We enjoy every success that happened this year because of a KU grad and Gregg Marshall. Get over it.

[pie n eye]

We will have to agree to disagree on this one as we have for years now, LOL

I know we’re not going to change each others minds here and that’s ok but I was interested to do some research on final four teams and their corresponding offensive and defensive efficiency numbers on KenPom.

The following numbers apply to the 72 Final Four teams dating back to 2002...

Average offensive rank - 18th
Average defensive rank - 15th

Number of teams outside the top 25 offensive - 19
Number of teams outside the top 25 defensive - 12

Number of teams outside the top 50 offensive - 5
Number of teams outside the top 50 defensive - 3

Number of teams outside the top 100 offensive - 1
Number of teams outside the top 100 defensive - 1

The two outliers were 2012 Louisville who had the 112 ranked offense and the number 1 defense, and the 2003 Marquette team that had the number 2 offense and the 109 ranked defense.

So, is it possible we could have made the final four that year without an improved defense? Yes. In fact, Marquette’s KP numbers are almost exactly the same as the 17-18 Shockers. But Marquette was the exception not the rule, at least based on the previous 18 years of KP data.

[Shocktoberfest]

Gilbert 29% 3 point shooting is disgusting . And I have not looked at his free throw percentage but most pg at WSU at a minimum shoot 70% or better. The shocks need to get more out of the pg regardless who it is. Go shocks

That reminds me. I've become tough to be around watching college basketball when guys don't make free throws. Any game. Any player. I cannot freaking stand to watch so called great athletes who can't shoot a freaking free throw. Unacceptable. Everyone on the court should be at minimum a 70% free throw shooter.

[Shockm]

Wasn't it Frankamp that took the last shot in the home game vs Cincy?

IIRC, you are correct that Landry's blocked shot went out of bounds, and then CF took a shot that was not a good shot (under extreme duress at the buzzer) and missed. But the thing about Landry's shot was that everyone collapsed on him when he drove it to the bucket, and Frankamp was standing in the corner wide open. Landry had tunnel vision on that play but Conner had the only good shot available inside 5-10 seconds. Cincy had a stifling defense and wide open shots were at a premium the entire game.

[pie n eye]

IIRC, you are correct that Landry's blocked shot went out of bounds, and then CF took a shot that was not a good shot (under extreme duress at the buzzer) and missed. But the thing about Landry's shot was that everyone collapsed on him when he drove it to the bucket, and Frankamp was standing in the corner wide open. Landry had tunnel vision on that play but Conner had the only good shot available inside 5-10 seconds. Cincy had a stifling defense and wide open shots were at a premium the entire game.

My foggy recollection was that Conner was wide open in the corner but missed so bad it was almost an air ball. That might have been the year before though...

[OregonShocker]

I know we’re not going to change each others minds here and that’s ok but I was interested to do some research on final four teams and their corresponding offensive and defensive efficiency numbers on KenPom.

The following numbers apply to the 72 Final Four teams dating back to 2002...

Average offensive rank - 18th
Average defensive rank - 15th

Number of teams outside the top 25 offensive - 19
Number of teams outside the top 25 defensive - 12

Number of teams outside the top 50 offensive - 5
Number of teams outside the top 50 defensive - 3

Number of teams outside the top 100 offensive - 1
Number of teams outside the top 100 defensive - 1

The two outliers were 2012 Louisville who had the 112 ranked offense and the number 1 defense, and the 2003 Marquette team that had the number 2 offense and the 109 ranked defense.

So, is it possible we could have made the final four that year without an improved defense? Yes. In fact, Marquette’s KP numbers are almost exactly the same as the 17-18 Shockers. But Marquette was the exception not the rule, at least based on the previous 18 years of KP data.

Certainly supports the belief that defense wins championships; at least more consistently than offense. But you better be pretty good at both.