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Originally posted by Good News
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In the style of Jimmy Chitwood I got something to say:
1. To reiterate an original point from 50 pages ago... got dam, ******* (and Forde, and Shaq and whoever else)... I hope you know what you’re doing. If this stuff isn’t as billed/reported/whatever and 3G survives... all I can think of is HCGM watching Omar in The Wire whistling A Hunting We Will Go/The Cheese Stands Alone and calling out “If you come at the king, you best not miss” before he goes on a burn down the muthaf**kin house multipronged vendetta.
2. Speaking of The Wire, I also think of HCGM as Marlo in the prison cell: “He used my name? In the street? ... “MY NAME IS MY NAME!” I don’t care what you think of the guy or what side you’re coming down on with the “abuse” - he grew up with nothing and scrapped for DECADES doing something he loved with no real expectation of significant compensation. I seriously doubt many if any of you can say the same.
3. Since the Montreal thing is somewhat in play I want to reiterate something I posted back when it happened because I am probably the only person in the world that saw it completely firsthand.
I was in the stands and happened to be watching HCGM for the whole thing. Abbreviated version. There were a couple hard fouls that probably primed him along with a general cognizance of “foreign/low competence refs and it’s big news if we lose and no news if we win” asymmetry.
Then the trigger event happened and my attention turned fully to HCGM. He wound up to kick the scorer’s table in frustration and - as I thought at the time - “damaging equipment is not a good look coach at a foreign D2 school coach”, he seemed to think exactly the same thing and dialed it down. But only 99%. So he gives a little, soft, small windup, side of the shoe soft scuff to the scorer’s table just to not back down all the way. No damage, no nothing.
Except the ref had been eyeing him all game and was itching to T him up for that same foreign D2 equipment and big time program asymmetry. So he was watching. And it turned into a standoff, and when 3G did the light scuff/kick, he T’d.
Then the cameras came on, and 3G went nuts. IMO, at least at first, justifiably. The ref was enjoying it.
That being said, HCGM went too far. But then again we all have at times. I would guess it was because there were a couple players that were too physical in holding him back and it threw gas on the fire (for some reason I think it was Grady and Bush).
I will die on that hill and the full video footage of that game will back me up. Just had to get that out because it’s not right that it’s being used against HCGM here.
4. Pat Forde, you’re an abject embarrassment and a joke of a writer for not reporting that (or everything else) accurately. Message me and confirm who you are and I will give the real story.
5. Dan - this is the greatest post ever and I request both a LIKE and a AYFKM button so that I can click both in the spirit of Schrodinger’s Cat.
6. In real life I wouldn’t do this, but since we’re on a message board I’ll throw out speculation of who of the “big 3” NBA guys that “can’t stand” Marshall is, along with an anecdote. Here’s my support for why I think it’s Baker (I already said I guessed it was Fred, but I could also see Landry):
I went to Hawaii for the Diamond Head Classic back in 14 or 15. Christmas Day game versus George Washington. Shaq was benched and didn’t play. Baker was already the captain of a deep tournament run and on his way to being an All-American.
I always sit close to the team on travel games because I enjoy watching the coaching.
Early in the game, Baker makes a normal play, heads to the bucket, and gets his shot pinned to the glass.
As the play goes the other way, Marshall screams
“HEY BAKE! (Baker turns and looks) THEY’RE BETTER THAN YOU THOUGHT, HUH?!!?!?!!!!!” in a chastising tone.
I thought “God damn, that’s kind of humiliating to a bench guy let alone your captain” and “I’ve played for some hard coaches that would have said that in practice but I’m not sure any one of them would have tipped our hand like that in a game”.
7. In re 6, that’s why we go 35-0 instead of 32-3. NCAA instead of NIT, 1 or 2 loss Valley instead of 3 or 4.
8. I ran into a random guy yesterday and we started talking about local high school basketball. We found out we had a friend in common that he had played against I had asked to be my assistant coach for kids teams.
The friend played for a major P5 conference school that you’ve heard of (that also made the Final Four), and he was also a captain of that team.
But what the guy and I talked about wasn’t where our friend ended at captainship with a Final Four ring... it was where he started.
He started in a gym with no coaches and no basketballs, with 24 other guys on the baseline. No coaches, just team managers with whistles. They ran line drills for 3 days until 21 guys threw up, quit, or both. Then they moved on to playing 3 on 3 against players until he was the only one left.
Then the real work started, because his coach was “abusive” and held him to the same standard as the non-walkons.
Four years later, he was forged of steel.
Twenty years later, he is a successful business owner and father who - by his own admission - was able to have a successful career in investment banking in New York and accomplish his life because of the adversity and resilience and “abuse” that he “suffered” in college.
The other thing the guy mentioned was how kids/parents today don’t want to be coached hard. He and I both experienced it and were better off for it. He also mentioned how it was funny 10 years after the fact that the overwhelming data pointed toward hard coaching as the determinant of success among AAU players that were all considered to be of the same skill level.
Some of you may have been multi sport players and disagree with what I’m about to say as a single sport player:
In football, if you’re bigger stronger faster you’re probably going to succeed. In baseball, if you have better hand/eye coordination you will probably succeed. Basketball is the only major sport where hard work and a f**k you attitude will bring you success. HCGM knows that and knows how to translate it to the court.
In my opinion, Shaq and Erik Stevenson aren’t going to learn stuff like that. And I will say that while fully admitting that while I wish I had the resilience to play for HCGM, I didn’t. It’s not for everyone.
7. It’s really hard to see winners here except for Kansas State, KU, and people with an axe to grind. In that order. I was watching old NCAA tournament games the other day and couldn’t help but think back to the inevitability of Gregg Marshall Court and a statue outside. Maybe it can still happen.
8. I don’t want to fuel the fire but we should remember that the media is passionate but unskilled (physically; they are very skilled with words/thought). They’re team manager types that love the game but didn’t have the size or skill to play. If/when a real athlete comes out and criticizes HCGM, I will change my mind.
9. I want HCGM to stay. But that big mofo question mark that everyone seems to skip over that might very well be the crux of the matter is the fact that the “punch” (quotation marks until investigation is complete/public/definitive) happened on the same day that Shaq’s Mom got her cancer diagnosis and he was crying in HCGM’s office.
If I opened up and trusted you and you walloped me same day, we are enemies for life until you apologize for real (not like the article said HCGM did, sticking his head into the film room after hearing FVV saying they wouldn’t practice).
Furthermore, I bet HCGM would be the same way.
Furtherfurthermore, I want to know why SM was even practicing that day - unless he wanted to. Which is a significant thing.
(And for the record I still also want to know the background of “the hard foul” because I think it’s important for context)
10. Nobody has said it but I’ve worked in the hard-nosed energy sandbox with Koch employees/alums... part of this silence/delay HAS to be a lowering of buyout and general contract renegotiation. Even if it’s complete exoneration, you have to acknowledge damage to the university, market value to the coach, future value to the program. If the investigation says everything is 95%+ manufactured and misrepresented, then fine. Sue and prosecute accusers.
11. In re recruiting: my hot take is that there’s a scenario where this could help us. On the first order, there are X percent of fathers out there pissed off about how soft the world is and seeing opportunity for the hard-ass son they molded so they seek us out. On the second order, HCGM has an additional filter for parents and players - “this is what I do, don’t sign up if you can’t join”.
I’d like to think that that we avoid both Shaq and Erik with that approach and get better fits.
Remember - we only need 2 a year. And we want those 2 to be bad mofos like X, Fred, Cle, PJ etc.
And maybe that’s the ultimate litmus test - do you want the guys attacking HCGM or the guys defending him?
12. Speaking of recruiting, it is clear to me that the original ******* timing was the National Letter of Intent signing day on Nov 11th in order to damage recruiting and incur maximum damage in closer proximity to the season, but it got pushed up because of another outlet’s scoop. (Which hypothetically could have been because they paid Shaq and ******* wanted his name on it so that’s where the “I couldn’t find anyone with the courage to put go on the record until Shaq” happened). Or maybe ******* called Shaq and sold him with the “hey man, if you want to take credit for this now is the time”.
Bottom line, I feel sorry for Shaq on so many fronts. F*** ******* and the media despite good intentions.
13. Last thing. Overriding thought. Don’t f*** with GM. Not HCGM, not 3G. GM. That dude at Randolph Macon fighting with teammates. Because even though I don’t know him I bet that is who he is.
If you come at the king, you best not miss.
In the style of Jimmy Chitwood I got something to say:
1. To reiterate an original point from 50 pages ago... got dam, ******* (and Forde, and Shaq and whoever else)... I hope you know what you’re doing. If this stuff isn’t as billed/reported/whatever and 3G survives... all I can think of is HCGM watching Omar in The Wire whistling A Hunting We Will Go/The Cheese Stands Alone and calling out “If you come at the king, you best not miss” before he goes on a burn down the muthaf**kin house multipronged vendetta.
2. Speaking of The Wire, I also think of HCGM as Marlo in the prison cell: “He used my name? In the street? ... “MY NAME IS MY NAME!” I don’t care what you think of the guy or what side you’re coming down on with the “abuse” - he grew up with nothing and scrapped for DECADES doing something he loved with no real expectation of significant compensation. I seriously doubt many if any of you can say the same.
3. Since the Montreal thing is somewhat in play I want to reiterate something I posted back when it happened because I am probably the only person in the world that saw it completely firsthand.
I was in the stands and happened to be watching HCGM for the whole thing. Abbreviated version. There were a couple hard fouls that probably primed him along with a general cognizance of “foreign/low competence refs and it’s big news if we lose and no news if we win” asymmetry.
Then the trigger event happened and my attention turned fully to HCGM. He wound up to kick the scorer’s table in frustration and - as I thought at the time - “damaging equipment is not a good look coach at a foreign D2 school coach”, he seemed to think exactly the same thing and dialed it down. But only 99%. So he gives a little, soft, small windup, side of the shoe soft scuff to the scorer’s table just to not back down all the way. No damage, no nothing.
Except the ref had been eyeing him all game and was itching to T him up for that same foreign D2 equipment and big time program asymmetry. So he was watching. And it turned into a standoff, and when 3G did the light scuff/kick, he T’d.
Then the cameras came on, and 3G went nuts. IMO, at least at first, justifiably. The ref was enjoying it.
That being said, HCGM went too far. But then again we all have at times. I would guess it was because there were a couple players that were too physical in holding him back and it threw gas on the fire (for some reason I think it was Grady and Bush).
I will die on that hill and the full video footage of that game will back me up. Just had to get that out because it’s not right that it’s being used against HCGM here.
4. Pat Forde, you’re an abject embarrassment and a joke of a writer for not reporting that (or everything else) accurately. Message me and confirm who you are and I will give the real story.
5. Dan - this is the greatest post ever and I request both a LIKE and a AYFKM button so that I can click both in the spirit of Schrodinger’s Cat.
6. In real life I wouldn’t do this, but since we’re on a message board I’ll throw out speculation of who of the “big 3” NBA guys that “can’t stand” Marshall is, along with an anecdote. Here’s my support for why I think it’s Baker (I already said I guessed it was Fred, but I could also see Landry):
I went to Hawaii for the Diamond Head Classic back in 14 or 15. Christmas Day game versus George Washington. Shaq was benched and didn’t play. Baker was already the captain of a deep tournament run and on his way to being an All-American.
I always sit close to the team on travel games because I enjoy watching the coaching.
Early in the game, Baker makes a normal play, heads to the bucket, and gets his shot pinned to the glass.
As the play goes the other way, Marshall screams
“HEY BAKE! (Baker turns and looks) THEY’RE BETTER THAN YOU THOUGHT, HUH?!!?!?!!!!!” in a chastising tone.
I thought “God damn, that’s kind of humiliating to a bench guy let alone your captain” and “I’ve played for some hard coaches that would have said that in practice but I’m not sure any one of them would have tipped our hand like that in a game”.
7. In re 6, that’s why we go 35-0 instead of 32-3. NCAA instead of NIT, 1 or 2 loss Valley instead of 3 or 4.
8. I ran into a random guy yesterday and we started talking about local high school basketball. We found out we had a friend in common that he had played against I had asked to be my assistant coach for kids teams.
The friend played for a major P5 conference school that you’ve heard of (that also made the Final Four), and he was also a captain of that team.
But what the guy and I talked about wasn’t where our friend ended at captainship with a Final Four ring... it was where he started.
He started in a gym with no coaches and no basketballs, with 24 other guys on the baseline. No coaches, just team managers with whistles. They ran line drills for 3 days until 21 guys threw up, quit, or both. Then they moved on to playing 3 on 3 against players until he was the only one left.
Then the real work started, because his coach was “abusive” and held him to the same standard as the non-walkons.
Four years later, he was forged of steel.
Twenty years later, he is a successful business owner and father who - by his own admission - was able to have a successful career in investment banking in New York and accomplish his life because of the adversity and resilience and “abuse” that he “suffered” in college.
The other thing the guy mentioned was how kids/parents today don’t want to be coached hard. He and I both experienced it and were better off for it. He also mentioned how it was funny 10 years after the fact that the overwhelming data pointed toward hard coaching as the determinant of success among AAU players that were all considered to be of the same skill level.
Some of you may have been multi sport players and disagree with what I’m about to say as a single sport player:
In football, if you’re bigger stronger faster you’re probably going to succeed. In baseball, if you have better hand/eye coordination you will probably succeed. Basketball is the only major sport where hard work and a f**k you attitude will bring you success. HCGM knows that and knows how to translate it to the court.
In my opinion, Shaq and Erik Stevenson aren’t going to learn stuff like that. And I will say that while fully admitting that while I wish I had the resilience to play for HCGM, I didn’t. It’s not for everyone.
7. It’s really hard to see winners here except for Kansas State, KU, and people with an axe to grind. In that order. I was watching old NCAA tournament games the other day and couldn’t help but think back to the inevitability of Gregg Marshall Court and a statue outside. Maybe it can still happen.
8. I don’t want to fuel the fire but we should remember that the media is passionate but unskilled (physically; they are very skilled with words/thought). They’re team manager types that love the game but didn’t have the size or skill to play. If/when a real athlete comes out and criticizes HCGM, I will change my mind.
9. I want HCGM to stay. But that big mofo question mark that everyone seems to skip over that might very well be the crux of the matter is the fact that the “punch” (quotation marks until investigation is complete/public/definitive) happened on the same day that Shaq’s Mom got her cancer diagnosis and he was crying in HCGM’s office.
If I opened up and trusted you and you walloped me same day, we are enemies for life until you apologize for real (not like the article said HCGM did, sticking his head into the film room after hearing FVV saying they wouldn’t practice).
Furthermore, I bet HCGM would be the same way.
Furtherfurthermore, I want to know why SM was even practicing that day - unless he wanted to. Which is a significant thing.
(And for the record I still also want to know the background of “the hard foul” because I think it’s important for context)
10. Nobody has said it but I’ve worked in the hard-nosed energy sandbox with Koch employees/alums... part of this silence/delay HAS to be a lowering of buyout and general contract renegotiation. Even if it’s complete exoneration, you have to acknowledge damage to the university, market value to the coach, future value to the program. If the investigation says everything is 95%+ manufactured and misrepresented, then fine. Sue and prosecute accusers.
11. In re recruiting: my hot take is that there’s a scenario where this could help us. On the first order, there are X percent of fathers out there pissed off about how soft the world is and seeing opportunity for the hard-ass son they molded so they seek us out. On the second order, HCGM has an additional filter for parents and players - “this is what I do, don’t sign up if you can’t join”.
I’d like to think that that we avoid both Shaq and Erik with that approach and get better fits.
Remember - we only need 2 a year. And we want those 2 to be bad mofos like X, Fred, Cle, PJ etc.
And maybe that’s the ultimate litmus test - do you want the guys attacking HCGM or the guys defending him?
12. Speaking of recruiting, it is clear to me that the original ******* timing was the National Letter of Intent signing day on Nov 11th in order to damage recruiting and incur maximum damage in closer proximity to the season, but it got pushed up because of another outlet’s scoop. (Which hypothetically could have been because they paid Shaq and ******* wanted his name on it so that’s where the “I couldn’t find anyone with the courage to put go on the record until Shaq” happened). Or maybe ******* called Shaq and sold him with the “hey man, if you want to take credit for this now is the time”.
Bottom line, I feel sorry for Shaq on so many fronts. F*** ******* and the media despite good intentions.
13. Last thing. Overriding thought. Don’t f*** with GM. Not HCGM, not 3G. GM. That dude at Randolph Macon fighting with teammates. Because even though I don’t know him I bet that is who he is.
If you come at the king, you best not miss.
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