NFL Kneeling

[shockfan89_]

You're right. They are kneeling to disrespect the flag and the national anthem...

This is the only statement I have seen from the players on why they are kneeling (I was not able to view the video Aargh posted).

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color, To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."

I have HUGE issues with an NFL player kneeling during the national anthem (while they are at work) if this is the stated reason. The first reason is it violates NFL rules and many less controversial displays have been fined and curtailed by the NFL.

[SHOXJOCK]

With all due respect to Nate Boyer. BS!! F'ING STAND!! Sit out the game if you want to make a statement. Call a news conference, host a forum of players at the pro bowl and make a united statement. There is just no gray area. When that flag is draped over coffins returning from battle nobody F'ING KNEELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry CBB_fan, this is in no way directed at you as the messenger. There are just many of us that have seen too many sacrifices, and too many good men and women die for that flag to make this your decision for a peaceful protest. I think your post 6 above was great information, and good context, it just doesn't fly with me.

There is no doubt Kaepernick picked a controversial time to make his "stand". Maybe too controversial, especially for a cause that factually doesn't exist. Now if he wanted to take up the cause of what is leading to the real epidemic (black on black crime in inner-cities, of which Kaepernick's complaint is a symptom of), I would stand next to him and help find solutions. But nobody seems to want to talk about that...

When is the last time you saw a story on any national new outlet about black on black crime? https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...u.s.-2015/home 2015 Murder stats black victims in 2015. 2,664 killed by 229 white offenders, 2,380 black offenders, others/unknown 55. If BLM wants respect go into black neighborhoods protest at gang members houses and the local drug dealers homes. If they do that I will join them in protesting the next police officer shooting with my comply don't die BLM t-shirt on.

[shockfan89_]

When is the last time you saw a story on any national new outlet about black on black crime? https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...u.s.-2015/home 2015 Murder stats black victims in 2015. 2,664 killed by 229 white offenders, 2,380 black offenders, others/unknown 55. If BLM wants respect go into black neighborhoods protest at gang members houses and the local drug dealers homes. If they do that I will join them in protesting the next police officer shooting with my comply don't die BLM t-shirt on.

Just a reminder, in 2016, the year this all started, there were 16 unarmed black people killed by police officers and 2,380 black people killed by black people. So when Kaepernick can't stand because of racism towards blacks and the bodies in the street at the hands of police, his protest is misguided at best and statistically a completely false narrative. In all honesty, we should be protesting the number of cops slaughtered by worthless people which FAR outnumbers the number of police killings of unarmed black people.

[pinstripers]

I do not believe that free Americans should be FORCED to stand for the National Anthem or to purchase health insurance.

[WstateU]

Just a reminder, in 2016, the year this all started, there were 16 unarmed black people killed by police officers and 2,380 black people killed by black people. So when Kaepernick can't stand because of racism towards blacks and the bodies in the street at the hands of police, his protest is misguided at best and statistically a completely false narrative. In all honesty, we should be protesting the number of cops slaughtered by worthless people which FAR outnumbers the number of police killings of unarmed black people.

http://amazingmusclecars.info/2017/09/17/louisiana-police-captain-challenges-blm-thug-to-fight-youre-going-to-love-this/

[ShockTalk]

This article lays out pretty well how the problem the kneelers are trying to call attention to, isn't actually a problem.

Police Violence Aganst Black Men Is Rare: Here's what the data actually say

I'll apologize up front if I missed any reply you made regarding @RoyalShock:'s post and the information contained in his attachment.

@jdshock:, @CBB_Fan:, @Rocky Mountain Shock:, @ShockCrazy:, and @ShockerPhi:. Did you read, in its entirety, the attachment? Comments about the article or other information that would refute this information? I value your input.

The players aren't kneeling to show support for BLM. I think that's getting thrown out because it's an easy, although misdirected, target if people want to be angry.

I found this in the twitter feed of one the basketball players. It's pretty tough to refute, as was noted by that player.

https://twitter.com/Blueraydre/statu...86986115633152

I needed to "close" the cover of that twitter to be able to scroll down to Sept 25th where I found the video.

Yes, the gentleman makes a very good case and I do hope that all NFL players are sincere in their protest. However, I also will ask that they not take my position lightly that the type of protest they are making (or what they "appear" to be protesting) may very well be counterproductive with many they are targeting or that targeted others will simply say "OK, fine do your protest and get on with the game" basically trying to ignore it (intentionally or unintentionally) because this is NOT why they watch sports.

I will also say that this gentleman got my attention in not so good away when he started talking like a "good ol boy" and lumping anyone who disagrees with the vehicle of their protest with the comments he made in that tone. I took it as racist. It detracted from the otherwise solid message he wanted to make, even if I don't believe he really understands my, and others, position.

Lastly, I wonder what he, and the players, would think and say if the stats from Royal's post are indeed true as this is the basis of the protest. By the way, I feel it should be about so much more than the police in general (as that is just not true) and a small % of questionable police shootings and brutality. I have stated before, that police departments need to up their game and weed out as much as possible those that cannot handle intense situations and make more use of alternative methods other than lethal force.

[WuDrWu]

LEO: Hey this non-compliant person is acting suspiciously and is reaching for something.

Supervisor: Well we can't see a deadly weapon so just use your mean voice for now.

LEO: He just shot a civilian.

Supervisor: Well you're not threatened, so just use your taser.

LEO: I'm hit. Call for a bus.

Supervisor: Calling a bus....hang on brave soul, called to the scene to stop crime, with no idea what might await you, whose hands were tied and whom we all expect to make perfect snap decisions sometimes in the face of a deadly assault, for 40k a year. Hang on my friend.

[CBB_Fan]

When is the last time you saw a story on any national new outlet about black on black crime? https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...u.s.-2015/home 2015 Murder stats black victims in 2015. 2,664 killed by 229 white offenders, 2,380 black offenders, others/unknown 55. If BLM wants respect go into black neighborhoods protest at gang members houses and the local drug dealers homes. If they do that I will join them in protesting the next police officer shooting with my comply don't die BLM t-shirt on.

When was the last time you saw a story on any national news outlet about white on white crime? 83% of killed were killed by fellow white people, 2509 of 3005. White people commit 53% of gang related crimes, while also being responsible for the vast majority of property crimes, aggravated assaults, larceny-theft, vandalism, arson, etc. Is it their culture, their crime-laden TV shows and violence-glorifying music? Or is something genetically wrong with them that makes them more likely to kill children and the elderly?

The above is obviously sarcastic, but hopefully I got a point or two across. Most people of any race are mostly likely to be killed by someone of the same race, for obvious reasons (proximity and family). Most of the time when I see this type of statistical demonification, it is being used to justify uncalled-for fear and division. It blows small stats out of proportion to make them seem like national catastrophes; another way of writing 2664 black homicide victims is to say that 99.993% of black people are not victims each year. That .006% is what all this fuss about.

And for the record, the last time I saw a news story on black-on-black crime was 4 days ago.

[Cdizzle]

When was the last time you saw a story on any national news outlet about white on white crime? 83% of killed were killed by fellow white people, 2509 of 3005. White people commit 53% of gang related crimes, while also being responsible for the vast majority of property crimes, aggravated assaults, larceny-theft, vandalism, arson, etc. Is it their culture, their crime-laden TV shows and violence-glorifying music? Or is something genetically wrong with them that makes them more likely to kill children and the elderly?

The above is obviously sarcastic, but hopefully I got a point or two across. Most people of any race are mostly likely to be killed by someone of the same race, for obvious reasons (proximity and family). Most of the time when I see this type of statistical demonification, it is being used to justification uncalled for fear and division. It blows small stats out of proportion to make them seem like national catastrophes; another way of writing 2664 black homicide victims is to say that 99.993% of black people are not victims each year. That .006% is what all this fuss about.

And for the record, the last time I saw a news story on black-on-black crime was 4 days ago.

I'm not sure there is a better post in this thread.

I'm also not sure that the point you intended is the one you made.

[shockfan89_]

Thanks ShockTalk, I was able to view the video doing what you suggested.

I agree, some very good points, but I am in the camp that would think kneeling for the anthem is bad regardless of what is being protested. Also, Kaepernick is the only one who has made a statement on what he is protesting and it is different than what this gentleman said.

I think one thing that has been overlooked is that these players are making A LOT of money. A lot of them are in that hated 1%. This would be similar to Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg complaining about the challenges of a small business owner and raising their prices to help out. Regardless of whether you agree or disgree with the challenges of a small business owner, hearing it from Gates or Zuckerberg is going to make some people say "You are rich, you can't relate anymore, shut up!" Then factor in they are raising prices and impacting others to help with their concern (pissing the general public off while bringing attention to it).

May not be a great analogy, but the point is nobody feels sorry for NFL millionaires playing a "game" for a living. Their current lifestyle is too far removed from the cause. Then doing something that can be perceived as disrespecting the flag at the national anthem during a time of war, and it is just a bad mix.

[ShockerPhi]

I'll apologize up front if I missed any reply you made regarding @RoyalShock's post and the information contained in his attachment.

@jdshock, @CBB_Fan, @Rocky Mountain Shock, @ShockCrazy, and @ShockerPhi. Did you read, in its entirety, the attachment? Comments about the article or other information that would refute this information? I value your input.



I needed to "close" the cover of that twitter to be able to scroll down to Sept 25th where I found the video.

Yes, the gentleman makes a very good case and I do hope that all NFL players are sincere in their protest. However, I also will ask that they not take my position lightly that the type of protest they are making (or what they "appear" to be protesting) may very well be counterproductive with many they are targeting or that targeted others will simply say "OK, fine do your protest and get on with the game" basically trying to ignore it (intentionally or unintentionally) because this is NOT why they watch sports.

I will also say that this gentleman got my attention in not so good away when he started talking like a "good ol boy" and lumping anyone who disagrees with the vehicle of their protest with the comments he made in that tone. I took it as racist. It detracted from the otherwise solid message he wanted to make, even if I don't believe he really understands my, and others, position.

Lastly, I wonder what he, and the players, would think and say if the stats from Royal's post are indeed true as this is the basis of the protest. By the way, I feel it should be about so much more than the police in general (as that is just not true) and a small % of questionable police shootings and brutality. I have stated before, that police departments need to up their game and weed out as much as possible those that cannot handle intense situations and make more use of alternative methods other than lethal force.

I went ahead and read it, but I was aware that police killing black people unjustly is in fact pretty rare. I remember all the stuff with Mike Brown, Philando Castille, etc. I guess the real problem here is the media. Black people everywhere are now terrified of being pulled over by the police. Even if that fear has been manufactured, it is real. I completely understand why people have a problem with anyone protesting this since it's not a major issue. It's just that it appears to be a major issue. Hence the protesting.

In the end, I guess I just don't take offense to people who choose to kneel during the national anthem. For the most part, I feel their intents are pure. When I attend a game, I'll still stand and have my hand over my heart, but for those that choose to kneel, fine by me.

Personally, I love the linking of the arms that several teams chose to do. I think that shows unity in the face of diversity, and that is encouraging to me.

[rrshock]

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US#viewtop

I think where crime statistics get skewed are when the ratio of crimes to population are not taken into consideration. Whites make up almost 77% of the population, while blacks are 13.3%. This is why the numbers just by themselves don't paint the correct picture.

By going just by population numbers, Caucasians should be committing a much higher number of the crimes listed. Instead the numbers are close to the same. This is the big issue with me. The African American community needs to figure out why there is such a discrepancy in relation to actual population totals.

[wufan]

I went ahead and read it, but I was aware that police killing black people unjustly is in fact pretty rare. I remember all the stuff with Mike Brown, Philando Castille, etc. I guess the real problem here is the media. Black people everywhere are now terrified of being pulled over by the police. Even if that fear has been manufactured, it is real. I completely understand why people have a problem with anyone protesting this since it's not a major issue. It's just that it appears to be a major issue. Hence the protesting.

In the end, I guess I just don't take offense to people who choose to kneel during the national anthem. For the most part, I feel their intents are pure. When I attend a game, I'll still stand and have my hand over my heart, but for those that choose to kneel, fine by me.

Personally, I love the linking of the arms that several teams chose to do. I think that shows unity in the face of diversity, and that is encouraging to me.

I'm not opposed to linking arms. My read on the situation:

Linking arms seems to show solidarity towards a cause that (allegedly) impacts all of America.

Kneeling shows a protest against America.

Without a unified statement otherwise, I'm going to have a hard time getting past this interpretation.

[ShockerPhi]

I'm not opposed to linking arms. My read on the situation:

Linking arms seems to show solidarity towards a cause that (allegedly) impacts all of America.

Kneeling shows a protest against America.

Without a unified statement otherwise, I'm going to have a hard time getting past this interpretation.

Totally fair and understandable. I too wish they would all just link arms instead. There's a lot stronger symbolism in that in my opinion.

[ShockCrazy]

I'll apologize up front if I missed any reply you made regarding @RoyalShock's post and the information contained in his attachment.

@jdshock, @CBB_Fan, @Rocky Mountain Shock, @ShockCrazy, and @ShockerPhi. Did you read, in its entirety, the attachment? Comments about the article or other information that would refute this information? I value your input.



I needed to "close" the cover of that twitter to be able to scroll down to Sept 25th where I found the video.

Yes, the gentleman makes a very good case and I do hope that all NFL players are sincere in their protest. However, I also will ask that they not take my position lightly that the type of protest they are making (or what they "appear" to be protesting) may very well be counterproductive with many they are targeting or that targeted others will simply say "OK, fine do your protest and get on with the game" basically trying to ignore it (intentionally or unintentionally) because this is NOT why they watch sports.

I will also say that this gentleman got my attention in not so good away when he started talking like a "good ol boy" and lumping anyone who disagrees with the vehicle of their protest with the comments he made in that tone. I took it as racist. It detracted from the otherwise solid message he wanted to make, even if I don't believe he really understands my, and others, position.

Lastly, I wonder what he, and the players, would think and say if the stats from Royal's post are indeed true as this is the basis of the protest. By the way, I feel it should be about so much more than the police in general (as that is just not true) and a small % of questionable police shootings and brutality. I have stated before, that police departments need to up their game and weed out as much as possible those that cannot handle intense situations and make more use of alternative methods other than lethal force.

I have the article. I do think there are some valid points but there are also issues with the piece. He approaches the data only cherry picking out things that support his argument ignoring very large sections of his sources as a whole. It kind of of just hand waves away the fact that violent force is used more often with minorities with some whataboutism regarding lower rates with women. It also doesn't dig into the actual data he cited about excessive-nonfatal force which was much higher for minorities. I also really disagree with any argument that compares completely unrelated things that have no relevance, such as comparing to the death-rate related to lightning strikes. It's irrelevant. The premise of the entire protest isn't genuinely that people are just being mowed down all the time(despite some idiots within the protest acting like that's what's going on), it's that there is non equal treatment. It seems the case that fatalities are no more prevalent when you account for encounters and jump through all these hoops to try to "normalize" the data. But that really fails to acknowledge a lot of very obvious and apparent issues with law enforcement from that very data set.