NFL Kneeling

[ShockerPrez]

All of this just reeks of virtue signaling as opposed to actually combatting the problem, whatever that problem is. Its been, what 2 years now with all of this? What has it accomplished? If their goal is to draw attention and support for a problem, why take action that will piss off half of the people you supposedly want to bring together and unify against said injustice?? WTF?

I dont get it. I dont understand why Trump decided to chime in and make it, now about protesting him. Its all just so stupid in my opinion.

Perhaps instead of doing things that divide, take stands and actions that unite?

But, such is the times. Rationality is gone. I will still watch the NFL because I like it. I try to just not pay attention to all the bullshit and focus on the sport. I saw,my Bears all standing, so perhaps there is hope.

We can all agree there are problems. If you want to kneel, fine, but I hope that after you kneel, your commitment to your cause doesnt stop when you stand up, because that just makes you phony. And I sniff a huge amount of PC in all of it.

[Dan]

I'm at work and can't get to it, but someone should look up the cases of police violence or killings when you account for the number of interactions between police and African-Americans (and instead of a raw number, use percentages). I was thinking I read it's pretty similar across the board for different races.

we've gotten to the point in our society where we feel like we have to spend all our energy focusing on the .01%. That's what social media will do for you.

[WuDrWu]

No where on Earth is their another place with this kind of diversity that our nation has, where people have the kind of liberty and freedom that we do despite of race or any other difference.

I think you said a variety of things beautifully. I quoted this one sentence because I think it's a point easily lost in frustration. You are completely correct that our country is like no other and the freedoms we have are unparalleled....but we should, as a people, understand that we are not perfect (and strive for a "more perfect Union) and remember the words on our currency such as from many things, we are one and my personal favorite Annuit Coeptis or He (God) approves our undertakings and remember that, again on our currency, we as a people, as a country are unfinished. We're constantly to strive for better and to be better. And we should never rest on the laurels of what we know or believe to be good and right and just. It is right to believe those things, of course, but we can always be better.

[shockfan89_]

Just in case you want to let Roger Goodell know how you feel:

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell
officeofcommissioner@nfl.com
212.450.2000
280 Park Avenue, 15th floor New York, NY 10017, United States

[CBB_Fan]

I took some time to research and think on where I stand on the issue. The following are my loosely organized thoughts.

This would have never happened in the past. Mostly because players weren't always forced to stand on the field. At some point between 2009-2015 the Army paid the NFL a few million as part of recruitment campaign, and players were forced to stand as part of that deal (players have always been able to optionally stand, the difference is being out on the field and being obligated). In other words, before the players ever chose to make a political statement by kneeling they were forced to make a political statement by standing.

And legally speaking, kneeling isn't disrespecting the flag. The quoted portion is U.S. Code § 8 - Respect for flag.

(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(e) The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
(f) The flag should never be used as a covering for a ceiling.
(g) The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.
(k) The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.

That was not abbreviated. You can argue that the players are unpatriotic or disrespecting the country, but the flag code is the flag code. Things like this horizontal flag break section (c). Northwestern's flag uniform breaks section (d). This giants flag arguably breaks section (g). Etc.

We tolerate actual violations of the flag code. Sometimes we celebrate them as patriotic. It is more than vaguely hypocritical to call out a non-violation while accepting blatant violations, at least if the issue is with disrespect to the flag.

Edit: There is also a code for anthem violations, which does in fact require all present to stand and salute. However, this is a guide to voluntary civilian compliance with no penalties, and probably cannot force players to stand and salute as per West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette.

I should note that while kneeling is not illegal, Trump calling for the players to fired is.

It is also to important to note that Trump had personal grievances with the NFL, and that some part of this controversy is petty revenge. At one point the US had a spring football league, the United States Football League. Trump, aspiring to become an NFL owner without the high cost of purchasing a team, wanted his USFL team to be part of a merger. At his behest the USFL moved to a fall schedule to compete against the NFL and launched an anti-trust lawsuit. At a cost of $163M to the taxpayer, the lawsuit was finally settled in favor of the USFL. They won one dollar, later tripled to three dollars upon review, which effectively ended the league.

Trump has had other odd interactions with the NFL. He claimed an endorsement from Tom Brady that was denied by Brady's wife. Back when he dropped out of the Fox News debate, he was looking for excuses to back out of other debates and manufactured a fake letter from the NFL which stated how "ridiculous" it was to have to compete with Trump's debates. Not to mention his tweets about how barring helmet-to-helmet contact ruined the game or trying to buy the Bills in 2014. Or when he complained in 2013 that the president shouldn't tell NFL teams what to do and should focus on real problems.

The other story behind the story is that this was a calculated political move to bury negative news stories and to reframe and escalate a controversy in a way that favored Trump. I'm having trouble finding my source, but the gist was that Trump wasn't making off-the-cuff remarks. Instead the GOP had done extensive opinion polling on Kaepernick and found high favorability numbers when they angled the issue as "NFL vs patriotism."

The football controversy also erased several breaking stories over the weekend from the nation's mind:

• Kushner used private email to conduct White House business
• Trump using campaign, RNC funds to pay Russia probe legal bills
• Federal government notifies 21 states of election hacking

My final thoughts:

Trump messed up. I think he probably comes out ahead politically ('rah-rah' flag-waving is politics 101), but it isn't good for the country to continue to search for petty lines of division, nor for its President use inflammatory rhetoric like "sons of bitches." Trump's base either doesn't care or approves of his rhetoric, as a primary reason he was elected was because he was the only person willing to poke the hornets nest, but it is bad for the country.

The NFL messed up. They are not in business to make people feel good or enact social change. They are in business to make money. Revenues are already declining due to lower youth interest and cable's decline, and escalating that with social controversy is needlessly shooting themselves in the foot. The proper response to the protests was to say "We respect our players' courage in expressing their 1st Amendment rights, but we will enforce the rules and by-laws of our proudly American league by enacting a fine on any player that chooses not to stand for the national anthem."

Kaepernick and the players messed up. They chose a shitty way to protest. They instantly lost their message to the flag-respect debate. But more importantly, they did nothing for their cause. A successful protest changes public opinion by creating sympathy. We've seem to have forgotten this on both sides, whether it be anti-abortion activists forcing their children to protest in 100°C weather with graphic images or leftwing anarchists wearing black and intimidating people.

That does less than nothing. It actively hurts "the cause" by making the protesters the antagonists. It is just virtue signalling while avoiding any real consequences for the protest, little better than slapping a COEXIST sticker on a Prius and twice as annoying.

Effective protest has a formula, because it is typically organized by some central organization (ie, the NAACP and Rosa Parks). That formula is simple:

1. A morally upstanding person is picked to violate a specific rule or law that is perceived to be unjust.
2. That person is charged and penalized
3. The media is alerted and shows the punishment in a way that garners sympathy with the protester

Rosa Parks was arrested. MLK Jr. was arrested. Gandhi was arrested. For more relevant examples, Muhammad Ali lost his title and Jackie Robinson was court martialed.

Kaepernick's protest fails on every mark. A heavily tattooed, controversial NFL player waged war against a strong but vague feeling and was rewarded with shares and Facebook likes while the media followed Trump's lead and made the whole thing about disrespecting the flag.

A bad frontsman, an unspecific cause, a lack of unjust punishment, and a loss of control of the narrative all make this a perfect example of how not to protest, even if the whole thing was peaceful.

[Walker]

I think you said a variety of things beautifully. I quoted this one sentence because I think it's a point easily lost in frustration. You are completely correct that our country is like no other and the freedoms we have are unparalleled....but we should, as a people, understand that we are not perfect (and strive for a "more perfect Union) and remember the words on our currency such as from many things, we are one and my personal favorite Annuit Coeptis or He (God) approves our undertakings and remember that, again on our currency, we as a people, as a country are unfinished. We're constantly to strive for better and to be better. And we should never rest on the laurels of what we know or believe to be good and right and just. It is right to believe those things, of course, but we can always be better.

Absolutely right. We have so much to continue to strive for and improve every day as a nation, and as a people. Despite our shortcomings, I feel we've given more effort in that pursuit than any other nation. It's my hope that we can see ourselves and each other as Americans, unhyphenated. I hope these players can see that eventually in the people that come to their games, the police that do security at the stadiums among many others that help make it possible for them to do what they do.

[shockfan89_]

And legally speaking, kneeling isn't disrespecting the flag. The quoted portion is U.S. Code § 8 - Respect for flag.

It is actually against the law not to stand for the national anthem. 36 US 301.

(a) Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

A wise man once said, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." I think that concept behind that statement is lost on many of the people who want the kneelers fired or who suggest one must stand for the anthem in order to be "patriotic."

With that said, I support the kneelers and I support those who disagree with them. This country is big enough and great enough for everyone with varying opinions. I invite--in fact I encourage--anyone who wants to boycott the NFL to do so, not on the grounds that I agree with them, but on the grounds that they have every right to do so.

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that someone was upset Kaepernick or others haven't done anything besides kneeling. I don't have time to post links today, but I urge you to Google it and inform yourself. Many players, including Kaepernick, have gone well beyond kneeling to address racial injustice and police brutality. Both with the their time (which they don't have much of) and their money (which they do), they have taken significant action.

[pinstripers]

A wise man once said, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." I think that concept behind that statement is lost on many of the people who want the kneelers fired or who suggest one must stand for the anthem in order to be "patriotic."

With that said, I support the kneelers and I support those who disagree with them. This country is big enough and great enough for everyone with varying opinions. I invite--in fact I encourage--anyone who wants to boycott the NFL to do so, not on the grounds that I agree with them, but on the grounds that they have every right to do so.

It has been mentioned earlier in this thread that someone was upset Kaepernick or others haven't done anything besides kneeling. I don't have time to post links today, but I urge you to Google it and inform yourself. Many players, including Kaepernick, have gone well beyond kneeling to address racial injustice and police brutality. Both with the their time (which they don't have much of) and their money (which they do), they have taken significant action.

Most have not and will not. Kap has.

[RoyalShock]

This article lays out pretty well how the problem the kneelers are trying to call attention to, isn't actually a problem.

Police Violence Aganst Black Men Is Rare: Here's what the data actually say

[pinstripers]

This article lays out pretty well how the problem the kneelers are trying to call attention to, isn't actually a problem.

Police Violence Aganst Black Men Is Rare: Here's what the data actually say

that's not going to matter to anybody

[im4wsu]

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017..._medium=social

Will be interesting to see this week's numbers.

[shockfan89_]

This article lays out pretty well how the problem the kneelers are trying to call attention to, isn't actually a problem.

Police Violence Aganst Black Men Is Rare: Here's what the data actually say

Very interesting that an unarmed black man is just as likely to be struck by lightening as he is to be killed by police.

[jdshock]

I never said it wasn't. I just meant maybe at some point people should admit the problem is with the intent of the protest rather than acting like the the type of protest is the problem. If you're constantly calling for peaceful protests on race-issues, but then once one happens you say "c'mon, that's terrible!" then you maybe just don't want that protest to happen. Which, I guess, is fine. Just don't mask that belief by acting like every other protest is violent.

The longer this thread gets, the more I stand by what I said here. The bigger problem most people have is that they don't agree with the movement, not the actual kneeling.

Any of you considering a boycott: what if the same type of protest were done for a cause you believed in? Hypothetically, let's say it's 2009, democrats are in charge of the government, and a major pro-abortion bill passes. In protest of the recent events, some NFL players take to kneeling during the national anthem. Do you still boycott the NFL if the NFL doesn't take a hardline stance against the kneeling?

If the answer is no, then all this disrespect stuff is silly. If yes, it's totally pointless to re-hash the same lame debate about whether or not systemic racism exists since it's obviously a debate about the need to worship the flag.

[CBB_Fan]

It is actually against the law not to stand for the national anthem. 36 US 301.

(a) Designation.—
The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.

(b) Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—
(1) when the flag is displayed—
(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2) when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

I will admit that I was wrong, as I didn't find this law when I perused the flag codes. Though it is important to note that neither code prescribes any penalties for non-compliance nor include any enforcement provisions. They are just guides for voluntary civilian compliance.

I would guess the most relevant court case would be West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette, which held that The Supreme Court held that public school children could not be compelled to salute the U.S. flag (which should hold for the anthem code as well as the flag code). I will edit my original comment.

I will note that before 2009 it appears that players either stayed in the locker room, or went to stand for the anthem. They wouldn't technically have broken the anthem code as they would not have been present. The only reason this could have become an issue is the NFL bylaw change.