NFL Kneeling

[SHOCKvalue]

A sidebar, but this story has reminded me that the straw man fallacy is alive and well.

This morning in my FB feed I see numerous people talking about all of the anti-kneeler posts and how hypocritical the anti-kneeler crowd is, but strangely enough I don't have a single damn post showing up in my feed critical of the kneelers. And my FB friends list is overwhelmingly conservative or libertarian leaning.

Weird...

[ShockCrazy]

Also I find it baffling why everyone gets so upset about the kneeling. It's not trying to be disrespectful, nor IS it disrespectful. In fact Colin Kaepernick took to kneeling instead of sitting explicitly to do better to honor the military. How many of you kneel in church? Is it disrespectful then? If it was about being disrespectful to the country and the flag I can think of quite a few things that could be done to do so rather than kneeling.

[martymoose]

I'll refer you to Doc's previous post that says it better than I could put in words. I respect their 1st ammenment rights, which includes my right not to fill the NFL coffers.

I'm a veteran who can't relate to millionaire athletes disrespecting the flag. I guess my question is why do they equate the flag to the systematic police brutality that they claim? Why not actually set out a concrete plan to wipe out this systematic widespread police brutality? I see no substance to the protests.

So you want the people who are being victimized to setup a concrete plan to stop them from being brutalized by the police....? The first step is drawing attention and they're doing just that.

[shockfan89_]

Originally when this all started I was 100% against it. It didn't make sense to me and I saw it as disrespecting the country. I don't know what's going through the minds of everyone who has decided to kneel. I'll never kneel, but the more I've thought about it and read about it over the last year the protest has grown on me. They are drawing the attention that they set out to draw. Every person who says they're going to boycott the NFL is adding more attention to the protest. Trump is adding attention to the protest. For everyone complaining...they could have all shut up and this would have disappeared a long time ago, instead thanks to those who don't believe in freedom of speech this protest has blown up. The same people who interpret the Constitution as saying you can own as many guns as you want want to silence a nonviolent protest. The funniest part is most of the people boycotting the NFL probably didn't watch anyway or still watch and follow the scores but say they don't. I know for a fact a couple people on my Facebook feed didn't follow the NFL and now they're "boycotting" it. ROFL

I completely disagree. They are not drawing attention to the issue, they are drawing attention to themselves! I have seen VERY LITTLE discussion of the topics they intend to draw attention to. The vast majority of the discussion is about the protest themselves. Personally, I saw much more substantive discussion prior to the NFL players actions.

I also disagree about the people boycotting the NFL. I have seen comments from people I never thought would entertain a boycott of the NFL saying they won't follow the Chiefs and have even quit their fantasy football league. I think the NFL is going to regret this weekend for a long time to come.

[BostonWu]

So you want the people who are being victimized to setup a concrete plan to stop them from being brutalized by the police....? The first step is drawing attention and they're doing just that.

These millionaire athletes have the ultimate platform to work with authorities to take action. For those who choose to actually do something about it I have respect as opposed to many just drawing attention with no real substance.

Again they have right to protest and I have the right as a consumer to peacefully hit the off button on my remote. Why does that bother you?

[martymoose]

I completely disagree. They are not drawing attention to the issue, they are drawing attention to themselves! I have seen VERY LITTLE discussion of the topics they intend to draw attention to. The vast majority of the discussion is about the protest themselves.

...and ask yourself why that is? It's because of all the people being offended by it. Those who realize there is problem are talking about the problem. But unfortunately the news is everyone whining because someone knelt for the national anthem. People are more offended by someone's choice at a peaceful protest protest than people being profiled, abused and killed.

[pinstripers]

Also I find it baffling why everyone gets so upset about the kneeling. It's not trying to be disrespectful, nor IS it disrespectful. In fact Colin Kaepernick took to kneeling instead of sitting explicitly to do better to honor the military. How many of you kneel in church? Is it disrespectful then? If it was about being disrespectful to the country and the flag I can think of quite a few things that could be done to do so rather than kneeling.

It is absolutely disrespectful.

[rrshock]

I think, like many others, that there are things they cpuld be doing instead of this. Is it every cop? Not even close. Is it every white person doing it? No, its a super small percentage. Are there reasons that certain minority groups are profiled by certain police officers/departments? Right or wrong, crime rates paint a good picture. So why aren't they trying to get to the root of the problem and go from there? Criminals of all races haven't helped their cause whatsoever. Isn't there statistics that show the highest rate of people shot and killed by officers is white people? And black officers shoot more black people than their white counterparts?

I really don't think some of these people have even tried to figure out what is really going on.

[jdmee]

...they could have all shut up and this would have disappeared a long time ago, instead thanks to those who don't believe in freedom of speech this protest has blown up. The same people who interpret the Constitution as saying you can own as many guns as you want want to silence a nonviolent protest.

Lets stop right there. Just because you have freedom of speech does not mean that I must listen to your speech. I can believe in your freedom of speech and still not want to hear it and not support it during the national anthem. I can disagree with what/how you are expressing your "free speech" and stop watching. They are not conflicting ideals.


If Starbucks for example decided to give 50% off to everyone who is wearing a Black Lives Matter or a Police are Scum or a ... shirt and decide to charge all Police Officers 150% of original price. I would be 100% against any law stating they couldn't. I would also never go to a Starbucks again.

[asiseeit]

None of the media OR the players themselves understand what is REALLY going on.
It goes back to BHO the community organizer who applied the ideas of Alinsky which
are intended to create chaos and divisiveness within our populace and turn us
against our constitution, our flag, statues, the anthem and ourselves. The main
stream media supports it and fans the flames. NFL / NBA players are nothing more
than their useful idiots to accomplish their goals. They think they are doing something
noble when in reality they are being played and used by the left. That is it in a nutshell.

[Anthroshock]

These millionaire athletes have the ultimate platform to work with authorities to take action. For those who choose to actually do something about it I have respect as opposed to many just drawing attention with no real substance.

Link is a partial list of charitable foundations run by players on the Chiefs. You can find a list like this on every NFL team page. While they are largely set up for tax purposes, plenty of players "actually do something."

http://www.chiefs.com/news/article-2/Chiefs-Players-to-Participate-in-NFL-My-Cause-My-Cleats-Campaign-in-Week-13/8143b05a-a3b5-4600-ba93-07aac8495312

[Dan]

If this is truly about police brutality or racism within the police force, Colin Kaepernick, or whoever is the designated leader of this movement, needs to take it to another level and start proposing some actions to help address the issues. Kneeling during the national anthem isn't helping the cause. It's bringing a lot of attention to the players, that's for sure, but what is it really doing for the cause? I haven't really heard anyone step up and state the ultimate goal of this protest. At some point you have to say, "ok I made my point, here's what I want to accomplish" and start working with authorities to address the issues.

I have a better idea, how about we let all the pro athletes use the time during the national anthem to hold up their own sign stating whatever they want to protest, their favorite cause, or whatever their message. I'm sure they all have their own grievances and would like to express them. Clearly this is sarcastic, but where do you draw the line? When this all settles down, someone will stand up and say, "ok, it's my turn, I want to kneel to protest XYZ and everyone better kneel with me or your against me".

End rant.

[Walker]

It's very disrespectful, and it's built on a false narrative of perpetual victimization that the statistics just don't support. The people kneeling have never spent a day in policemen's shoes who makes a fraction of what they do, and put in a position of a life or death situation, where the worse case scenario is they being carried by 6 to be laid to rest, and then the best case scenario is they have come out of it alive and then are demonized, ostracized and have to go into hiding because they and their loved ones are forever in danger of retaliation.

People are tired of being told they are part of a racist nation that just elected a black man president twice. When the Cowboys wanted to put a sticker on their helmets to commemorate the lives of 5 fallen officers who were murdered by a BLM terrorist, they were not given permission to do so because the NFL thought it would be too divisive, but then allow this kneeling BS, it shows you where their intentions are. Where was the willingness for their freedom of expression then?

No where on Earth is their another place with this kind of diversity that our nation has, where people have the kind of liberty and freedom that we do despite of race or any other difference. These NFL players are living proof of that. The perpetual claim of every problem being chalked up to whites being racist and are picking on minorities and that explains everything, everywhere is dying out, and people are tired of having this crap shoved in their face. Sports should be a refuge from politics, but it's not now. Don't think the NFL will be around much longer if this persists.

[wufan]

Here's the thing with this type of protest:

Things aren't right and they need to get better. The protestor feels they must draw attention to the issue.

I ask, why? If the problem was real wouldn't it be inherently obvious such that attention drawing exercises wouldn't be necessary? Perhaps it's so bad that it is systemically being denied. If that's the case, then why not bring it to legal proceedings in order to change the law? The reason it's not going to court is because the laws already protect everyone equally. Since the government is a set of laws and enforcement, you can't say that this is a systemic problem in America. That's the logic fail.

Even in an equal legal system, the protests continue, thus they are about culture, and the cultural battle is one of power. If these protestors want to win the culture wars, they need to do it on the basis of ideas and not on the basis of emotion, and they shouldn't protest the system that sees them as equal under the law.

For individual cases of racism, point them out and let's fight them together.

[Kel Varnsen]

The new weekend lib talking points are out. You don't want the protest to happen.

And you don't want conservatives or whites or anyone you disagree with to protest anything.

I don't believe most "kneelers" know what they're protesting, except that they don't like the President. That's fine. Frankly, I don't care.

I'm sick of being told how wrong "white" America is. I'm sick of being told I'm a racist because I think government is too big. I'm sick of being told because my family has worked hard and lived a clean life and saved money and wants their children to have a better life than they had that somehow that's white privilege.

And I'm sick of singular, outlier episodes dominating culture talk. White LEOs killing innocent black men is not a systemic problem by any measure of rational thought. It's just not. Black men being biological fathers and then abandoning those children IS a systemic problem. Gang violence IS a systemic problem. Let's address THOSE issues.

You want to say people don't want a protest to happen???? Why don't you start with REAL problems, and not made up ones, or ones so small or infrequent that most people will rarely if ever have to deal with it.

I'm at work and can't get to it, but someone should look up the cases of police violence or killings when you account for the number of interactions between police and African-Americans (and instead of a raw number, use percentages). I was thinking I read it's pretty similar across the board for different races.