Legalize marijuana

[wufan]

The pizza and Doritos PAC is going to make sure it gets legalized.

All they care about is profit!

[wufan]

So you made me curious and I just discovered this study which is personally interesting, due to some relatives having some pretty extraordinary hardships around this topic.

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/can.2018.0035

To me it says that younger people smoking dope appear to end up with smaller hippocampi, which "exacerbates age-related cognitive decline".

I'm thinking we are just at the start of seeing real research into the long term effects of consistent marijuana usage.

Have to agree with subgod (surprise)! I’m not sure what this information has to do with the discussion. I’m not in favor of children smoking weed. I’m interested in adults being able to make their own decisions, regardless of whether or not it is the best possible thing they could do for themselves. Is there a point I’m missing?

[Kung Wu]

So you guys believe the kid that begins his decade of weed smoking when he is 22 years old is going to have a substantially different health outcome than the kid that starts his decade at 19?

[Kung Wu]

I am specifically interested in the effects of increasing the amount of THC and the health effects associated with that chemical. I haven’t been able to find any, but have been assured that it is the cause of I’ll effects.

Just taking a quick dive, I am easily finding a ton of information on THC. None of it is good (so far).

"Cannabis containing high levels of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and little if any cannabidiol (CBD) is becoming increasingly prevalent and is linked to greater cannabis dependency, memory impairment and paranoia and increased risk of psychotic illness."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-018-0191-x

Three-times the risk of having a psychotic disorder is no joke ...
"The risk of individuals having a psychotic disorder showed a roughly three-times increase in users of skunk-like [high potency] cannabis compared with those who never used cannabis"

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S2215036614001175

"These findings confirm that THC can induce a transient, acute psychotic reaction in psychiatrically well individuals."
Could only find abstract: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2D289DAD327605

Increased anxiety for THC administration in animal models at higher doses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7920961/#B11

"These findings suggest that ∆9-THC dampens responses to both reward and loss feedback, which may reflect an 'amotivational' state."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-022-06164-y

Okay I did find one good thing .. CBD helps offset the effects of THC to some extent. So pot that is high potency without CBD is far more dangerous than pot containing CBD and lower potency THC.

I'll be honest, I thought marijuana was far more benign that what the research is showing. I was under the impression that by-and-large marijuana usage isn't a big deal. The research I see seems to indicates it's quite a bit worse than I thought.

[ShockerFever]

Why stop at legalizing marijuana? It’s all victimless, amirite?

[wufan]

Why stop at legalizing marijuana? It’s all victimless, amirite?

Agreed.

[wufan]

Just taking a quick dive, I am easily finding a ton of information on THC. None of it is good (so far).

"Cannabis containing high levels of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and little if any cannabidiol (CBD) is becoming increasingly prevalent and is linked to greater cannabis dependency, memory impairment and paranoia and increased risk of psychotic illness."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41398-018-0191-x

Three-times the risk of having a psychotic disorder is no joke ...
"The risk of individuals having a psychotic disorder showed a roughly three-times increase in users of skunk-like [high potency] cannabis compared with those who never used cannabis"

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S2215036614001175

"These findings confirm that THC can induce a transient, acute psychotic reaction in psychiatrically well individuals."
Could only find abstract: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...2D289DAD327605

Increased anxiety for THC administration in animal models at higher doses.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7920961/#B11

"These findings suggest that ∆9-THC dampens responses to both reward and loss feedback, which may reflect an 'amotivational' state."

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00213-022-06164-y

Okay I did find one good thing .. CBD helps offset the effects of THC to some extent. So pot that is high potency without CBD is far more dangerous than pot containing CBD and lower potency THC.

I'll be honest, I thought marijuana was far more benign that what the research is showing. I was under the impression that by-and-large marijuana usage isn't a big deal. The research I see seems to indicates it's quite a bit worse than I thought.

Thank you. Now we’ve established that in adults THC can cause transient hallucinations and memory loss and in long term users it may cause longer lasting hallucinations and memory loss.

That being the case, what right does the federal government have constitutionally to ban it?

[wufan]

So you guys believe the kid that begins his decade of weed smoking when he is 22 years old is going to have a substantially different health outcome than the kid that starts his decade at 19?

No, but a 25 year old would have significantly different outcome than a 15 year old. Additionally, a 15 year old does not have the agency to ruin his/her life, but a 25 year old does.

[Kung Wu]

No, but a 25 year old would have significantly different outcome than a 15 year old. Additionally, a 15 year old does not have the agency to ruin his/her life, but a 25 year old does.

This study considers a 19 year old an adolescent with a median age of 17 +/- 4 years (so it spans from 13 year olds to 21 year olds). I'm sure the low end is extreme and the upper end is not, but didn't verify that.

I'm not convinced a 15 year old smoking dope for a decade is going to have a different physical outcome in hippocampus concerns than a 25 year old that begins smoking dope for a decade. In fact, based on the concerning psychosis studies, it might even be _worse_, as the adolescent brain might be able to work around the "trauma" while the adult brain has a more difficult time rewiring itself.

[wufan]

This study considers a 19 year old an adolescent with a median age of 17 +/- 4 years (so it spans from 13 year olds to 21 year olds). I'm sure the low end is extreme and the upper end is not, but didn't verify that.

I'm not convinced a 15 year old smoking dope for a decade is going to have a different physical outcome in hippocampus concerns than a 25 year old that begins smoking dope for a decade. In fact, based on the concerning psychosis studies, it might even be _worse_, as the adolescent brain might be able to work around the "trauma" while the adult brain has a more difficult time rewiring itself.

Okay…let’s say your supposition is true. Should the federal government be allowed to ban marijuana?

[Kung Wu]

Thank you. Now we’ve established that in adults THC can cause transient hallucinations and memory loss and in long term users it may cause longer lasting hallucinations and memory loss.

It's worse than that.

That being the case, what right does the federal government have constitutionally to ban it?

Not sure where that's coming from, I never said anything about the federal government having a constitutional right to ban marijuana. Each state certainly has a right to ban it though.

Based on easy to find research, at the very least, the ratio of THC to CBD should absolutely be at the front of the conversation for regulation. Perhaps if you want a federal government regulation, then make marijuana prescriptive and issue FDA guidelines on that ratio? You're the pharma expert, would that have legal basis? I have no clue.

[wufan]

It's worse than that.



Not sure where that's coming from, I never said anything about the federal government having a constitutional right to ban marijuana. Each state certainly has a right to ban it though.

Based on easy to find research, at the very least, the ratio of THC to CBD should absolutely be at the front of the conversation for regulation. Perhaps if you want a federal government regulation, then make marijuana prescriptive and issue FDA guidelines on that ratio? You're the pharma expert, would that have legal basis? I have no clue.

One, I don’t think it is worse. Acute psychosis is a temporary alteration of reality.

Second, I don’t believe that health risks constitute a reason to ban a substance.

C, my argument all along has not been about health but freedom. Some on here are concerned about health risks to the user. I am not. I do not want federal regulation, but do support local/state regs.

The FDA has been granted privileges to regulate medicinal substances to safety and efficacy standards. Not sure on the constitutionality of it, but that is the law.

[Kung Wu]

One, I don’t think it is worse. Acute psychosis is a temporary alteration of reality.

You stated it was "longer term hallucinations", but it's not just hallucinations. As you clarified here, it's psychosis and all the associated symptoms thereof which is more broad than a hallucination. It can involve episodes of anxiety, delirium, hallucinations, and speech problems where each episode can last for a couple of weeks. There is also research to show a small causative link between THC and schizophrenia. THC is also known to increase the intensity of psychosis and schizophrenia, and create more relapses and hospitalizations than one would expect without THC.

Third, my argument all along has not been about health but freedom.

Well you specifically asked about health concerns, "Also, what specific negative health effects (other than altering mood and appetite) does THC have?" So I got interested and took a look and responded.

I thought marijuana was mainly just de-motivational (a "mood" problem), but I was surprised to see that long term use of marijuana can be nastier than I thought. That does come with a cost to society: increased health care costs, increased insurance premiums, increased property crime due to substance dependence come to mind. Maybe others I haven't considered. Those problems might be negligible or they might not be. The less negligible they are, the more society overall has a right to restrict and or regulate it. The more negligible they are, the less society should care.

[SB Shock]

So we're against legalizing it because those who can't legally obtain it and it isn't meant for can have bad reactions to its continued use?

That's not how things should be decided.

It is not "bad reaction" but life altering mental illness.

[wufan]

I did not read all articles posted in their entirety, so am open to missing key data, but I do not believe that there is a causative link to chronic psychosis associated with marijuana. That said, it doesn’t matter to me…

Everyone (including me) has a point at which they are willing to oppress someone else’s rights for their benefit or the benefit of others. Some on this thread wish to oppress the rights of others due to concerns about someone else’s health. Others might wish to suppress someone else’s rights as it is an undue burden on society. Once the objection has been fully explained, then you can have a conversation about whether you side with freedom or oppression.

If it might harm a third party, discussions about crime and punishment is necessary.

As to an individuals health, that is their business IMO.

As to undue burden, there are numerous ways in which to make someone else’s problem not be your problem and to reduce/eliminate that burden. I ask that people consider how to regulate and self govern their community on the smallest level possible as an alternative to oppression.