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  • Originally posted by seskridge
    Here are 3 cases in which someone used the phrase "I hope" and were convicted of obstruction.

    U.S. v. McDonald, 521 F.3d 975 https://casetext.com/case/us-v-mcdonald-29
    In McDonald's case, the district court based the obstruction of justice enhancement on: (1) Callahan's testimony that, when she visited McDonald while he was incarcerated, he showed her a note urging her not to say anything about the knife; and (2) the letter McDonald wrote to Callahan which stated in part, "I hope and pray to God you did not say anything about a weapon when you were in Iowa. Because it will make it worse on me and you even if they promised not to prosecute you[.]" The district court did not err by finding Callahan's testimony "totally believable," nor did it err by imposing a two-level increase for obstruction of justice based on McDonald's attempts to prevent Callahan from revealing McDonald carried a concealed knife during the bank robbery.
    Hope was not the cause of the obstruction. It was based on the telling the other witness not to discuss the weapon.


    Johnson later confronted Twiggs, saying: "You was seen with Steve Lamar and that it wasn't healthy."

    Based on this threat, the district court enhanced Johnson's sentence two levels for obstruction of justice, stating:



    the obstruction of justice goes to the threats, the intimidation, and specifically the threat against the witness John Twiggs where he was seen in a car with officer Lamar and later Mr. Johnson told him to the effect that I hope you aren't doing what I think your doing because that's unhealthy . . . I think anybody in their ordinary meaning of that would take that as a threat.


    We review a district court's finding that a defendant obstructed justice for clear error. United States v. Wright, 37 F.3d 358, 361 (7th Cir. 1994). Johnson asserts that the district court's finding was clearly erroneous in this case because he did not know that Twiggs was a government witness. We disagree. 1A threat to a potential witness is sufficient to warrant an enhancement under section 3C1.1, as long as the statement was intended to threaten, intimidate or unlawfully influence that person. United States v. Cherif, 943 F.2d 692, 703 (7th Cir. 1991); United States v. Sanchez, 35 F.3d 673, 680 639 *639 (2d Cir. 1994). Johnson also makes this claim, namely that his statement to Twiggs was not a threat. The district court disagreed, however, finding that the ordinary meaning of Johnson's statement "[y]ou was seen with Steve Lamar and that it wasn't healthy" constituted a threat. This finding was not clearly erroneous.
    Again it wasn't the I hope phrase it was based on the threat of "it wasn't healthy".

    This one is a big mystery to me. I read http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20...%20v.%20CHUJOY and couldn't find the instance where the phrase "I hope" was used in any manner that would constitute obstruction.

    Comment


    • Quick take on the Comey Testimony

      WASHINGTON, D.C.—Explosive testimony from ex-FBI Director James Comey confirmed Thursday exactly what you already wanted to believe before you heard a word of what he had to say, news channels and websites across the nation frantically reported.

      “Whether you think Trump is a Russian spy or that this entire thing was made up out of thin air by the Democrats, Comey’s testimony today has proven you right beyond a shadow of a doubt,” one pundit said, referencing several things the ex-director said during his dramatic interrogation before the Senate Intel Committee.
      “We can finally wrap this up—you were right all along,” he explained, adding that any other news or evidence that comes out from this point forward will also, undoubtedly, serve to strengthen your already-entrenched opinion.


      Experts also reported that if you need any further proof, just go to whichever websites you normally visit for your daily news, and they will assure you that Comey’s testimony is the nail in the coffin of anyone who disagrees with you about Donald Trump’s ties with Russia.
      WASHINGTON, D.C.—Explosive testimony from ex-FBI Director James Comey confirmed Thursday exactly what you already wanted to believe before you heard a word of what he had to say, news channels and websites across the nation frantically reported.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seskridge
        Why clear the room if you arent doing something shady?
        That's an excellent question. Perhaps it was to intimidate him. It would certainly make one lean towards a higher probability of "threat". It doesn't change the truth of my original statements.
        Livin the dream

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seskridge
          I'm not an attorney so I don't know how to find good cases, however, I'm sure there are some. It would be interesting to see.
          Those didn't work out so well. There may well be a case where hope was used as a threat. I think Rubio asked Comey if he was aware of a time where "I hope..." lead to an obstruction of justice case and he was not aware.
          Livin the dream

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seskridge
            It's interesting to see some people (Trump supporters and Trump's lawyer) claim that Comey gave an unreliable testimony and also claim that he proved Trump right. You can not pick and choose specific parts of the hearing that sound good, then claim the rest is false.
            I voted against Hillary, and I thought it all sounded good.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seskridge
              It's interesting to see some people (Trump supporters and Trump's lawyer) claim that Comey gave an unreliable testimony and also claim that he proved Trump right. You can not pick and choose specific parts of the hearing that sound good, then claim the rest is false.
              I would have to disagree. This exact strategy has been used my entire life. By both sides. Obama did it, Reagan did it. Hell, given the chance, both you and I would do it.
              There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

              Comment


              • First dot: Trump said he hoped Comey could stop an investigation. While that's not a directive or an order...it sounds ominous to the person being addressed.

                Second dot: Comey interpreted that as a threat to his continued employment.

                Third dot: Comey continues the investigation

                Fourth dot: Comey gets fired.

                It is not difficult to connect these dots. Impeachment proceedings were brought against Bill Clinton because he said he "didn't have sex with that woman" and the investigators disagreed with him on his definition of "having sex". There is precedent for interpreting the meaning of the words that are used.

                So, did Trump fire Comey because he continued the investigation of Comey or for an other reasons. Let's go through all the reasons that were given by the White House

                Spicer: It was at the recommendation of Rod Rosenstein. Wow! Did that one blow up fast.

                Next...

                Trump: I was going to do it all along because of the way he handled Hillary's investigation. That one was pretty hard to believe and the timing was way wrong for that scenario. His documented meetings with Comey give the impression that that was not his intention "all along".

                Next...

                His colleagues had no respect for him and the entire FBI was in disarray. That could fly because the employees at the FBI don't tend to say much. Comey took a pretty hard shot at that one today. Flat out called Trump a liar for making that statement. That could shake some lips loose a bit.

                BUT...

                Trump (to the Russians): I fired him because the Russian investigation was putting a lot of pressure on me. The biggest leak of the entire affair so far was made by Trump to the Russians.

                Of the 4 explanations for Comey's firing that have come out of the White House, the one he told the Russians seems to be borne out by events prior to Comey's firing. That one is an admission of intent to obstruct justice.
                The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
                We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Aargh View Post
                  First dot: Trump said he hoped Comey could stop an investigation. While that's not a directive or an order...it sounds ominous to the person being addressed.

                  Second dot: Comey interpreted that as a threat to his continued employment.

                  Third dot: Comey continues the investigation

                  Fourth dot: Comey gets fired.

                  It is not difficult to connect these dots. Impeachment proceedings were brought against Bill Clinton because he said he "didn't have sex with that woman" and the investigators disagreed with him on his definition of "having sex". There is precedent for interpreting the meaning of the words that are used.

                  So, did Trump fire Comey because he continued the investigation of Comey or for an other reasons. Let's go through all the reasons that were given by the White House

                  Spicer: It was at the recommendation of Rod Rosenstein. Wow! Did that one blow up fast.

                  Next...

                  Trump: I was going to do it all along because of the way he handled Hillary's investigation. That one was pretty hard to believe and the timing was way wrong for that scenario. His documented meetings with Comey give the impression that that was not his intention "all along".

                  Next...

                  His colleagues had no respect for him and the entire FBI was in disarray. That could fly because the employees at the FBI don't tend to say much. Comey took a pretty hard shot at that one today. Flat out called Trump a liar for making that statement. That could shake some lips loose a bit.

                  BUT...

                  Trump (to the Russians): I fired him because the Russian investigation was putting a lot of pressure on me. The biggest leak of the entire affair so far was made by Trump to the Russians.

                  Of the 4 explanations for Comey's firing that have come out of the White House, the one he told the Russians seems to be borne out by events prior to Comey's firing. That one is an admission of intent to obstruct justice.
                  All coming from someone who's ethics have been questioned from almost everyone, at every level.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Aargh View Post
                    First dot: Trump said he hoped Comey could stop an investigation. While that's not a directive or an order...it sounds ominous to the person being addressed.

                    Second dot: Comey interpreted that as a threat to his continued employment.

                    Third dot: Comey continues the investigation

                    Fourth dot: Comey gets fired.

                    It is not difficult to connect these dots. Impeachment proceedings were brought against Bill Clinton because he said he "didn't have sex with that woman" and the investigators disagreed with him on his definition of "having sex". There is precedent for interpreting the meaning of the words that are used.

                    So, did Trump fire Comey because he continued the investigation of Comey or for an other reasons. Let's go through all the reasons that were given by the White House

                    Spicer: It was at the recommendation of Rod Rosenstein. Wow! Did that one blow up fast.

                    Next...

                    Trump: I was going to do it all along because of the way he handled Hillary's investigation. That one was pretty hard to believe and the timing was way wrong for that scenario. His documented meetings with Comey give the impression that that was not his intention "all along".

                    Next...

                    His colleagues had no respect for him and the entire FBI was in disarray. That could fly because the employees at the FBI don't tend to say much. Comey took a pretty hard shot at that one today. Flat out called Trump a liar for making that statement. That could shake some lips loose a bit.

                    BUT...

                    Trump (to the Russians): I fired him because the Russian investigation was putting a lot of pressure on me. The biggest leak of the entire affair so far was made by Trump to the Russians.

                    Of the 4 explanations for Comey's firing that have come out of the White House, the one he told the Russians seems to be borne out by events prior to Comey's firing. That one is an admission of intent to obstruct justice.
                    On your second dot, Comey said that he interpreted it as a directive or an order, not a threat. There is a difference there. It doesn't mean that the dots can't be connected, or that it wasn't a threat, just that there's a little bit more of a dotted line than a straight line.
                    Livin the dream

                    Comment


                    • IDK if I posted something regards Trump not listening to his advisors here or on the Comey thread yesterday, but I just sat this and thought it was prescient and funny:



                      "But a consistent theme, the sources said, was the concern about whether the president would accept the advice of his lawyers and refrain from public statements and tweets that have consistently undercut his position.
                      “The concerns were, ‘The guy won’t pay and he won’t listen,’” said one lawyer close to the White House who is familiar with some of the discussions between the firms and the administration, as well as deliberations within the firms themselves."

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by wufan View Post
                        On your second dot, Comey said that he interpreted it as a directive or an order, not a threat. There is a difference there. It doesn't mean that the dots can't be connected, or that it wasn't a threat, just that there's a little bit more of a dotted line than a straight line.
                        Might need one more dot. At some point (either prior to the "hope" comment or at that meeting), there was a meeting called where Trump wanted to discuss whether Comey wanted to remain as director of the FBI.

                        If your boss called you into his office and said "Would you like to remain in your job"? and followed that up with "I hope you can do xxxxx", how would you interpret that meeting? That "would you like to keep your job" comment is pretty chilling and sets a tone and context for the rest of the conversation.
                        The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
                        We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

                        Comment


                        • to me, one of the biggest deals is the Loretta Lynch thing, she directed him to do it, and he complied. Trumps said "I hope" and Comey did not comply. He knew the difference between being ordered to do something, and not being ordered to do something

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pinstripers View Post
                            to me, one of the biggest deals is the Loretta Lynch thing, she directed him to do it, and he complied. Trumps said "I hope" and Comey did not comply. He knew the difference between being ordered to do something, and not being ordered to do something
                            I don't see what your concern is here, he applied his judgment and decided it was not worth the fight. He did not say what she did was right, only that it was not worth a fight because he had already decided there was no case.

                            I've been extremely disappointed with both the Bush AG's and the Obama AG's as this office seems to be getting more and more like a job for a political hack and less and less something I think it should be: to be an unbiased arbiter of the law.

                            Comey' strategy was smart, in my opinion, as he was saving his ammunition and political capital for a real fight, not tilting at windmills.

                            When you've worked in some really large bureaucracies, it's easier to understand. You get run through if you allow yourself to get drawn into every scrap.

                            Comment


                            • My point is, he knew when he was being ordered to do something and complied. When Trump said that he hoped, Comey recognized that it was not an order.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pinstripers View Post
                                My point is, he knew when he was being ordered to do something and complied. When Trump said that he hoped, Comey recognized that it was not an order.
                                It's really not that good of an argument. I have disobeyed orders and I've acted on simple requests with no threats. If someone's in my car with a gun to my head and says "drive five miles per hour above the speed limit" I probably comply. If someone says "you're fired if you don't kill your family" I obviously don't comply.

                                You can't just say this definitely proves it wasn't an order. Lots of other factors go into someone's decision making when determining if they will follow said order. He could've decided the first instance didn't bother him so much ethically that it was worth taking a stand and losing his job. He could've been so guilt ridden over the first instance that he never wanted to do it again. Who knows... But choosing not to do something doesn't prove what you're saying it proves.

                                Comment

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