Trump

[RoyalShock]

This whole VOICE thing though is really concerning. Publishing a weekly list of crimes from immigrants really does nothing without context (i.e. how many crimes from citzens vs immigrants on a per 100,000 bases). It is fearmongering whether unintentional or intentional.

When it comes to exposing and punishing criminals who are not Constitutionally afforded due process because they are here illegally, what is the relevance of statistical context?

VOICE is necessary because there are factions of this country with their collective heads in the sand.

There is a "crimes and courts" section in virtually every newspaper, and daily articles about people accused of crimes. Yet those have no accompanying statistical context. I don't find those to be very concerning.

[jdshock]

criminals who are not Constitutionally afforded due process because they are here illegally

This is a common misconception.

Undocumented aliens have due process rights in the United States, even if they're here illegally.

[RoyalShock]

This is a common misconception.

Undocumented aliens have due process rights in the United States, even if they're here illegally.

Ok, question: Can an illegal alien suspected of an additional crime be picked up and deported without requiring a conviction in a US court?

[CBB_Fan]

This whole VOICE thing though is really concerning. Publishing a weekly list of crimes from immigrants really does nothing without context (i.e. how many crimes from citzens vs immigrants on a per 100,000 bases). It is fearmongering whether unintentional or intentional.

It does nothing positive even with context. The entire point is create fear. People are extremely bad at statistics, so publishing a list of crimes makes it seem like crime is around every corner.

If illegal immigrants (and the agency apparently will publish crimes by all aliens, not just illegal immigrants) commit murder and assault at the rate of Iceland then we'd still see a murder to sensationalize every other week along with 880 assault cases.

880 would sounds like a ton of crime, right? That's the point. That would be among the lowest rates in the world for any population, yet could easily be spun as an epidemic of violent crime that needs to be shut down. There is a reason literal Nazis published the crimes of Jews to justify scapegoating them.

This wouldn't be new information, it sounds like it will be abused to attack legal immigrants and permanent residents, and the only possible purpose is to try to garner public support for Trump's agenda by scapegoating immigrants as a threat.

[WuDrWu]

This whole VOICE thing though is really concerning.

I am being totally sincere and honest here....Why? What about this is concerning? Seriously, what am I missing? People that are in this country illegally, stealing from YOU, committing crimes against your fellow citizens. I'm not being a smart ass, I am genuinely interested in why this is "concerning" to you.

Clearly it is a problem. I'll grant you, it's maybe not as big a problem as gang violence in Chicago, but it's still a problem. Like I said, I just don't understand unless you're on the side of illegals committing crimes against citizens, and I don't really think that.

Thank you!

[ShockingButTrue]

“This is really a battle for our democracy,” Holder said. “The notion that people are denied their ability to cast a meaningful vote … is inconsistent with who we say we are, inconsistent with what we say our democracy is about.”

The very definition of a "false equivalent." No?

“This is really a battle for our democracy,” Holder said. “The notion that people are denied their ability to cast a meaningful vote … is inconsistent with who we say we are, inconsistent with what we say our democracy is about.”


The very definition of a "false equivalent." No?

[WuDrWu]

It does nothing positive even with context. The entire point is create fear. People are extremely bad at statistics, so publishing a list of crimes makes it seem like crime is around every corner.

If illegal immigrants (and the agency apparently will publish crimes by all aliens, not just illegal immigrants) commit murder and assault at the rate of Iceland then we'd still see a murder to sensationalize every other week along with 880 assault cases.

880 would sounds like a ton of crime, right? That's the point. That would be among the lowest rates in the world for any population, yet could easily be spun as an epidemic of violent crime that needs to be shut down. There is a reason literal Nazis published the crimes of Jews to justify scapegoating them.

This wouldn't be new information, it sounds like it will be abused to attack legal immigrants and permanent residents, and the only possible purpose is to try to garner public support for Trump's agenda by scapegoating immigrants as a threat.

No, it points out what the press and people like you refuse to admit exists. It's not a "rate" thing, it's an actual "thing" thing.

It needs to be stopped because it's against the law, and it IS a problem.

No it doesn't sound like that. It sounds like it's going to be used against criminals. Are you on the side of the criminals?



Just wow.

Bonus lib internet points for working Nazis into the post.
However, you forgot to use xenophobic, misogynists and racist. You lose the lib internet today.

Unreal.

[boyshocker]

Great job Wu, could not have said it better.

[CBB_Fan]

No, it points out what the press and people like you refuse to admit exists. It's not a "rate" thing, it's an actual "thing" thing.

It needs to be stopped because it's against the law, and it IS a problem.

No it doesn't sound like that. It sounds like it's going to be used against criminals. Are you on the side of the criminals?

Just wow.

Bonus lib internet points for working Nazis into the post.
However, you forgot to use xenophobic, misogynists and racist. You lose the lib internet today.

Unreal.

The entire point is propaganda. No one is saying crime doesn't exist. They are saying that publishing and promoting crimes from a certain group is a propaganda tactic to provoke fear and hatred of everyone in that group. And that will affect far more than just criminals.

Don't like the fact that the Nazis literally used a crime list to scapegoat Jews? Too bad. It happened. But if you think this is just a "anything Nazis do is bad and Trump = Nazi" shitpost, I'll note that this has been by far more than the Nazis.

Woodrow Wilson created the first modern propaganda ministry in the West, the Committee on Public Information. Edward Bernays, a participant in CPI operations, characterized the mission of CPI as the “engineering of consent” and “the conscious manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses.”

What do they do? In addition to giving speeches and making posters promoting Wilson, they fabricated German war crimes and dehumanized them. For instance, they spread the lie that Germans were cutting the hands off Belgian babies to deliberately mutilate them. This propaganda is a large reason for our involvement in WW1.

That's an all-American example of dehumanizing propaganda. And there are many more examples from our own country. Propaganda FROM our government justifying fear and hatred against minorities is the issue and should not be defended.

[atlwsu]

The entire point is propaganda. No one is saying crime doesn't exist. They are saying that publishing and promoting crimes from a certain group is a propaganda tactic to provoke fear and hatred of everyone in that group. And that will affect far more than just criminals.

Don't like the fact that the Nazis literally used a crime list to scapegoat Jews? Too bad. It happened. But if you think this is just a "anything Nazis do is bad and Trump = Nazi" shitpost, I'll note that this has been by far more than the Nazis.

Woodrow Wilson created the first modern propaganda ministry in the West, the Committee on Public Information. Edward Bernays, a participant in CPI operations, characterized the mission of CPI as the “engineering of consent” and “the conscious manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses.”

What do they do? In addition to giving speeches and making posters promoting Wilson, they fabricated German war crimes and dehumanized them. For instance, they spread the lie that Germans were cutting the hands off Belgian babies to deliberately mutilate them. This propaganda is a large reason for our involvement in WW1.

That's an all-American example of dehumanizing propaganda. And there are many more examples from our own country. Propaganda FROM our government justifying fear and hatred against minorities is the issue and should not be defended.

I have been following this for awhile without comment. But, this post is too much. I find two logical flaws. Jews are not equal to people in this country illegally. They are not the same. If you said a specific ethnic minority was being singled out, you might have a point. Would it be evil to point out the # of crimes committed by people on illegal drugs?

Second, if you say this is what the Nazi did, what is the intended impression? Those publishing the statistics are the same as Nazis! Then in the next posts state others have done similar things in the US. If there are other less emotional laden examples why not use them? Why not use Wilson instead of the Nazi example. I don't like to give motives but, it is clear Wilson would not invoke the emotional response the purely evil of Nazi Germany or a Stalin in Russia would cause. Is there another more rational reason?

My to cense worth. Maybe the second was not a logic flaw as much as a dent in civil discussion.

[RoyalShock]

I can't help but get the feeling that publishing the crimes of illegal aliens (from who knows where) to illustrate that it is a real problem, thereby getting the support of the American people for the government to enforce it's own laws and remove those criminals from our country is being equated to rounding up a class of people - most of whom did nothing wrong - and executing them.

If the end goal was annihilation of a people group, or any otherwise violent result, then I could maybe agree with this being a propaganda tactic. But exposing truth for the purpose of enforcing our own laws with citizen support doesn't sound at all like propaganda to me.

[shocka khan]

The entire point is propaganda. No one is saying crime doesn't exist. They are saying that publishing and promoting crimes from a certain group is a propaganda tactic to provoke fear and hatred of everyone in that group. And that will affect far more than just criminals.

Don't like the fact that the Nazis literally used a crime list to scapegoat Jews? Too bad. It happened. But if you think this is just a "anything Nazis do is bad and Trump = Nazi" shitpost, I'll note that this has been by far more than the Nazis.

Woodrow Wilson created the first modern propaganda ministry in the West, the Committee on Public Information. Edward Bernays, a participant in CPI operations, characterized the mission of CPI as the “engineering of consent” and “the conscious manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses.”

What do they do? In addition to giving speeches and making posters promoting Wilson, they fabricated German war crimes and dehumanized them. For instance, they spread the lie that Germans were cutting the hands off Belgian babies to deliberately mutilate them. This propaganda is a large reason for our involvement in WW1.

That's an all-American example of dehumanizing propaganda. And there are many more examples from our own country. Propaganda FROM our government justifying fear and hatred against minorities is the issue and should not be defended.

Your argument fails on several fronts. First of all, you don't mention county of origin or race. Although most of our illegals are Latinos, second and third on the list are India and China and they are catching up fast. We've had Indians here involved in a boiler room operation (impersonating the IRS, calling people, telling them they are getting slapped with a garnishment order if they don't immediately pay). They were raking in millions of dollars a day. They had runners here in the U.S. (in the Houston area) to launder the money. The people working in the back offices were, I believe in Bangalore. While this isn't about murdering people, I do believe the people responsible for this ought to have their citizenship taken away and deported. It might sound a little harsh to you, but I don't have much tolerance for people using a third country to commit fraud here in the U.S. Especially when there are questions regarding an ongoing criminal enterprise (and thus a violation of RICO)

Also of note is that Latinos, I believe, are a majority racial demographic here in Texas. If they aren't, they're pretty close to being the majority.

I can't see a world where you castigate a third or more of the population based only on their race. Perhaps you are correct, perhaps this will happen. But it is also just as possible that this is a red-herring thrown out by the 'true believer' left-wing crowd to agitate pushback.

[CBB_Fan]

I can't help but get the feeling that publishing the crimes of illegal aliens (from who knows where) to illustrate that it is a real problem, thereby getting the support of the American people for the government to enforce it's own laws and remove those criminals from our country is being equated to rounding up a class of people - most of whom did nothing wrong - and executing them.

If the end goal was annihilation of a people group, or any otherwise violent result, then I could maybe agree with this being a propaganda tactic. But exposing truth for the purpose of enforcing our own laws with citizen support doesn't sound at all like propaganda to me.

Would you be okay if an SJW Democrat ran on a platform calling Republicans violent white nationalists and promised to push a weekly list of crimes by white people to show how dangerous they are? No, and you shouldn't be. You shouldn't accept propaganda just because the outcome might be favorable to your political views.

You are saying that as long as you agree with the ends the means are fine. But the means are not fine. The government is not the media. The government should not be promoting its policies by pushing propaganda and trying to create emotional responses, and it certainly shouldn't be doing so in a deliberate attempt to get around the media. This is a huge escalation of government power, and if you think it is acceptable now you need to know that it can and will be used against you. You don't want to see a liberal government go after right-wing media for being deceitful and creating their own propaganda against right-wing groups and churches, and that is exactly the type of abuse you get when you accept the means.

And this is pure emotional propaganda. If Trump wanted to combat illegal immigration and crime in a responsible way, it wouldn't be a weekly report. It be a end of year report by an agency with a list of policy suggestions. A weekly report is just a way to sensationalize crime and make it feel like a much bigger threat, a way to keep a constant stream of "illegal immigrants bad" in the news. If you just wanted accurate information, what difference does it make if it comes at the end of the year? No, this is designed to create fear.

And even if you don't think Trump's policies towards immigrants are unethical, you have to understand that pushing fear is reckless. There are dirtbags and looney-toons out there that won't take more than a push to commit a hate crime, like that Kansas shooter that attack the Indians. There is no reason to send even the slightest message of approval to those types. Even if you agree with statements like:

All we expect him to do is deport illegals and get illegal immigration under control, which was a good enough reason to elect him. Few people think he'll deport all the illegals, but even deporting half would be a huge improvement.
I'm sick of paying welfare to every parasite nation on the planet.
Trump calling the media "fake news" isn't being angry; it's being honest!
The creation of VOICE should go a long way in uncovering the damage immigration/illegals have caused this country.
Terrific to hear him address LEGAL immigration.
The democrats are nothing more than modern-day Bolsheviks, albeit with a lot less muscle and resolve and a lot more queers and lunatic women.
Trump’s actual talk on immigration was fairly good. First and foremost, Trump proposed a new program called VOICE, where for the first time, the Federal government will collect statistics on just how much crime immigrants are committing. He revealed to millions of Americans that the claims in support of “immigration reform” positing that immigrants don’t commit crimes or use public services was a lie all along.

You should recognize that there are bad hombres out there with similar opinions, but a lot looser grip on reality and civility. If you want, I can provide proof even for those specific statements.

[RoyalShock]

Would you be okay if an SJW Democrat ran on a platform calling Republicans violent white nationalists and promised to push a weekly list of crimes by white people to show how dangerous they are? No, and you shouldn't be. You shouldn't accept propaganda just because the outcome might be favorable to your political views.

I quit reading after this paragraph. If Trump were suggesting publicizing all crimes by people of Mexican heritage, then you might have a comparison.

[Cdizzle]

Would you be okay if an SJW Democrat ran on a platform calling Republicans violent white nationalists and promised to push a weekly list of crimes by white people to show how dangerous they are?

Happens all the time. In fact, they even want a registry. It's one of the reasons the NRA exists.