Mikey Saunders Jr. 6'0 PG Cincinnati Transfer to Cincinnati

[Shockm]

He will never be a great shooter but he will improve his shooting and be a decent to good shooter imo. He will be a Freshman which is a plus. His other positives are that he is extremely quick, runs the offense well, passes well, not selfish, very physical on both defense (causes havoc with his on ball defense, strength, and physical play), and on offense he can get to the rim utilizing his strength, quickness, and jumping ability. If Alterique was bumped on the way to the rim, it would knock him down, but Saunders can still get there.

[Topshock]

He will never be a great shooter but he will improve his shooting and be a decent to good shooter imo. He will be a Freshman which is a plus. His other positives are that he is extremely quick, runs the offense well, passes well, not selfish, very physical on both defense (causes havoc with his on ball defense, strength, and physical play), and on offense he can get to the rim utilizing his strength, quickness, and jumping ability. If Alterique was bumped on the way to the rim, it would knock him down, but Saunders can still get there.

Those are his strength and they are good ones. There is nothing however to indicate he will ever be a good shooter. It is just so much harder to drive and get to the rim when the defense sags off of a player because they don't respect his shooting.

It also hurts the players that can shoot when you have a player on the floor that is a poor shooter. That is why teams were able to double team and help on Etienne this year so much.

[Shockm]

Those are his strength and they are good ones. There is nothing however to indicate he will ever be a good shooter. It is just so much harder to drive and get to the rim when the defense sags off of a player because they don't respect his shooting.

It also hurts the players that can shoot when you have a player on the floor that is a poor shooter. That is why teams were able to double team and help on Etienne this year so much.

I've seen guys improve their shooting, if they get into the gym and make 500 shots a day. Shooters are often not what they were as a Freshman when they graduate, and improve if they work hard.

[Shockm]

I might add. When I say physical play, Saunders weighs 190 lbs. He can get really physical for a guard

[Topshock]

I've seen guys improve their shooting, if they get into the gym and make 500 shots a day. Shooters are often not what they were as a Freshman when they graduate, and improve if they work hard.

I agree that is the case with some Freshman. The reason I have little hope for this guy's shooting is this:

He couldn't shoot in HS either. He and everyone realized this. He even had a shooting coach in HS to try and improve his shooting and that didn't help either.

If he commits to us, I would love for him to somehow get better, it just seems extremely unlikely that he would at this point

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Does anybody think Tekele Cotton was a liability when he was on the floor because of his poor shooting? This team has shooters and is adding more. Shox really need a couple of lock down guards who are stone cold thieves. I'll take Saunders (huge upside) and Goldwire (experience and high steal rate and protects the ball) any day of the week.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Why? Because it may lead people to an opinion on this kid that is contrary to yours?

No, but thanks for playing. It is a flawed metric because there are too many variables to those possessions that can't be truly quantified. Intangible things in missed shots, free throws, and turnovers themselves. Other people can influence the possessions that end up counting against another players Turnover Ratio.

[Topshock]

Does anybody think Tekele Cotton was a liability when he was on the floor because of his poor shooting? This team has shooters and is adding more. Shox really need a couple of lock down guards who are stone cold thieves. I'll take Saunders (huge upside) and Goldwire (experience and high steal rate and protects the ball) any day of the week.

Tekele Cotton was a career 34% shooter from 3pt. so that is a terrible example

This kid shot 22%

Where is the "huge upside", considering this kid has never been able to shoot.

[Topshock]

No, but thanks for playing. It is a flawed metric because there are too many variables to those possessions that can't be truly quantified. Intangible things in missed shots, free throws, and turnovers themselves. Other people can influence the possessions that end up counting against another players Turnover Ratio.

But it's the same for everyone, and his is terrible compared to everyone, indicating he is a turnover machine on top of not being able to shoot.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Tekele Cotton was a career 34% shooter from 3pt. so that is a terrible example

This kid shot 22%

Where is the "huge upside", considering this kid has never been able to shoot.

Not a terrible example at all. Given that it doesn't fit your script I could see why you would think that though.

They both attempted 23 three pointers their freshman year. TC made 8 while Saunders made 5. Not a huge discrepancy and not a large enough sample size to draw any sort of conclusion one way or another on either player. His huge upside is his skill set, which is evident in videos I have watched. My opinion vs. yours I guess. But, also take a look at who is pursuing him. I guess these teams might think highly of him no?

[Topshock]

No, but thanks for playing. It is a flawed metric because there are too many variables to those possessions that can't be truly quantified. Intangible things in missed shots, free throws, and turnovers themselves. Other people can influence the possessions that end up counting against another players Turnover Ratio.

Thanks for attempting to play, you condescending a.....

Do you think his offensive rating being lower than practically any other first year guard we have ever had, recently, is also flawed?

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Thanks for attempting to play, you condescending a.....

Do you think his offensive rating being lower than practically any other first year guard we have ever had, recently, is also flawed?

I'm done with you. Have a great day.

[12eagle]

No, but thanks for playing. It is a flawed metric because there are too many variables to those possessions that can't be truly quantified. Intangible things in missed shots, free throws, and turnovers themselves. Other people can influence the possessions that end up counting against another players Turnover Ratio.

All stats need context so here is some
Top turnover percentage seasons since 2002 for Wichita State
Graham Hatch 36.7
Adam Liberty 36.4
Noah Ferandes 35
Ehimeh 33.5
Wendall Predom 32.8
Demetric Williams 30.7

So Saunders season would rank as one of the worst turnover rates in the the Kenpom era. His assist to turnover ratio is 1-1 and he can't shoot. Yes he is a good defender although the advance defensive metrics show he is actually a mediocre defender but those can be highly dependent on your teammates around you.
I just don't get the love for this kid vs Goldwire or Grant.

[12eagle]

Not a terrible example at all. Given that it doesn't fit your script I could see why you would think that though.

They both attempted 23 three pointers their freshman year. TC made 8 while Saunders made 5. Not a huge discrepancy and not a large enough sample size to draw any sort of conclusion one way or another on either player. His huge upside is his skill set, which is evident in videos I have watched. My opinion vs. yours I guess. But, also take a look at who is pursuing him. I guess these teams might think highly of him no?

One difference is Cotton struggled to get on the floor on a really good team full of veteran guards Saunders couldn't get on the floor on a mediocre team that was one of the least experienced teams in D-! . All of the advanced metric stats paint Cotton as having a far superior freshman season vs Saunders.

[12eagle]

Last year Tyson Etienne Led the team with an offensive rating on KenPom of 114.7 which is good but here is where that number would rank on some of our best recent teams.
2012 4th
2013 Tie 3rd
2014 6th
2015 5th
2016 2nd
2017 5th
2018 7th
The point is we need more guys that can score the ball efficiently our best teams were awesome on D but also really efficient on O. There are certainly guys in the program who I think are capable of more but it wouldn't hurt to recruit some other guys who can shoot also