Would you support the return of football at WSU?

[SubGod22]

I was just saying that VB does a good job of covering more of their costs than sports like Tennis or Golf. I'm shocked that attendance at CU is so low for soccer. I'd be shocked to see it that low here. Soccer seems to be fairly popular, relatively speaking, around here and there's some good local talent. If the program ever started winning at a fair percentage, I think it would have the potential to also not be a big money loser. And they could easily use Cessna so you wouldn't have to worry about finding or building a facility.

[shox1989]

If you are saying Volleyball is not a money maker and doesn't lose a ton you are probably right (depending on how you define a ton). Unfortunately, attendance has been declining over the last several years after peaking in 2008.

Recent annual attendance numbers for VB:
2006 - 29,200
2007 - 35,700
2008 - 44,500
2009 - 37,600
2010 - 30,000
2011 - 28,000 (No doubt hurt by a paucity of non-conference home matches which should not be repeated this year).

At an average if $5 a pop (which might be on the high end) we generate about $140,000 to $190,000 in ticket revenues. Add in maybe $40,000 from the VB 101 Dinners and you get to $180,000 to $230,000 plus whatever the take is from concessions and match sponsorships/promos. Maybe enough all total ot cover the salaries of Lambo, Jeff, RJ and Mrs. Lambo (my guess is $250,000 as a group not including payroll taxes and any benefits). So we are not covering any travel, meals and lodging (including recruiting trips), uniforms, equipment, supplies and the cost of 12 scholarships, training staff, etc.

Not sure how big a deficit that leaves and I admit my numbers are WAGs. I doubt we would have to spend as much on the coaching staff for women's soccer but I don't really thing it will draw all that well either. Creighton, Illinois State and MSU were the top teams in the MVC last year. CU has drawn about 500 per match over the past 3 years. Illinois State draws about 200 per mtach. MSU drew 370 per match last year which was the only year I could find. They play anywhere from 8 to 12 home matches per year. In any case, they aren't generating a lot of revenue and I see no reason to think soccer at WSU would do any better.

Women's soccer is an equivalency sport that is allowed 14 scholarships to divy up. Roster sizes are CU - 21, ILS - 26 and MSU - 28 and, of course, would vary from year-to-year.

I think the 2008 recession and the slowness of Wichita to recover from it also have something to do with the declining attendance. All WSU sports have struggled with attendance since 2008. A 37% drop since 2008 is a lot but I think it is pretty much equivalent to the kind of drop weve seen in all other WSU sports except mens baseketball and even men's basketball with all of its promotion and a NIT championship team and ncaa team struggles with attendance. There is no doubt in my mind if the economy were better that men's basketball would have easily sold out every game last year.

[1972Shocker]

I was just saying that VB does a good job of covering more of their costs than sports like Tennis or Golf. I'm shocked that attendance at CU is so low for soccer. I'd be shocked to see it that low here. Soccer seems to be fairly popular, relatively speaking, around here and there's some good local talent. If the program ever started winning at a fair percentage, I think it would have the potential to also not be a big money loser. And they could easily use Cessna so you wouldn't have to worry about finding or building a facility.

Yes, VB does do a pretty good job of covering costs for a "non-revenue" sport. One other revenue stream I forgot to mention for VB is the Volleyball Match Club. I have no idea how many members or how much they contribute as a group but I bet the pick up at least another $20,000 from this .

Still I just don't see women's soccer drawing big numbers with CU and MSU being the best proxies.

[shocker3]

I would definitely support Shocker football. I don't know how many of you get ESPN the Magazine but there is an interesting tidbit of information on page 103 of the JUNE 25, 2012 Double issue.

It is in the article THE TOP 25 ALL-TIME SPORTS DEBATES DECIDED. The question is what should college football players be paid? Their answer is $137,000 per year (the average amount that all FBS football schools make above expenses and scholarships per player per year on football).

But the most interesting part of the article to me is this line:

"Smaller conferences net far less income (although only nine FBS schools failed to break even). "

If this is true that means the vast majority of schools in even the conferences like C-USA, MWC, WAC, MAC and Sun Belt make money on football.

So another good reason for WSU to bring back football is that once we get back to the FBS level (the level WSU was at when it dropped football), odds are very good that it will be a money maker for the athletic dept.

WSU could use another sport another than men's basketball (and occasionally men's baseball) to turn a profit.

http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/8...-espn-magazine

Thanks for the link. There is a lot of misconception among many Shocker fans that FBS football is a money loser. It is NOT these days. Nearly every school that plays FBS football MAKES MONEY.

That is one of the reasons that 28 schools have either started football or brought back football since 2008.

[SpanglerFan316]

Does "FBS football" also cover all of the costs of the new women's sports that are required?

[Aargh]

What do you do in the 5+ years you have to play FCS before you can move to FBS, and how do you find a league that will take a "fresh from the BCS ranks" school and invite WSU into an FBS conference?

This horse has died, and it's bones have been beaten so long there's nothing left. All you're doing now is beating the ground where the dead horse used to lie.

We're in a low popultion density area with the Pac-12 immediately to our west, the B1G immediately to our north, the SEC directly to our East, and the B12 (or 10) on both our east and south. The recruiting bones are pretty well picked through around here.

[shox1989]

I am not sure about the 5 year rule. There appears to be several schools right now that are moving up to FBS in 3 years or less.

[SubGod22]

You only have to play FCS for two or three years I believe. After that, you can look to move up. The Mountain West and CUSA would be potential options. Even the Sun Belt could potentially be an ok option. Who knows what happens with the WAC. It's all about having options. The MVC seems ok for now, but I could really see Creighton leaving at some point. Illinois State wants to move up to FBS and probably will in the next 5-10 years. If there is more fracturing and the A10 gets hit, I could even see Bradley getting in. We have next to zero options without football. Realignment isn't finished. And there is some thought that these ultra large 14-16+ conferences won't last and may fall apart (to some extent) which would lead to more restructuring.

The goal shouldn't necessarily be to get to FBS immediately, but to build towards that. And the recruiting would work out just fine. Just like any other sport we participate in. We have one of the premier JUCO football conferences in the country. Sure, we're not going to land the stars of those teams, but there are a lot of quality players in the state. Even the HS ranks aren't that bad. And we're a basketball state. OK has a lot of good talent in a football crazy state as does TX. We'd still find some quality individuals.

I'm glad that Bardo actually sounds open to the idea once he gets some things in order and taken care of. Who knows if this talk starts up in three years or five, but at least we finally have someone who is open to a public discussion of football and sees what it can do for the University. It's another reason I'm glad he's focused on growing enrollment. I'd like to see us get to 18k and see what happens then. Increased enrollment means more money and more future donations. Same with football. You grow your alumni and that will lead to more donations as well. Especially from those who feel a connection and football can do that like no other sport. Increased sales of merchandise isn't horrible either.

[wu_shizzle]

Bardo's question was penetrating, "Who do you want to beat?".

I would like to see us be competitive in CUSA. That would require a metric ton of cash.

[DoubleJayAlum]

You only have to play FCS for two or three years I believe. After that, you can look to move up. The Mountain West and CUSA would be potential options. Even the Sun Belt could potentially be an ok option. Who knows what happens with the WAC. It's all about having options. The MVC seems ok for now, but I could really see Creighton leaving at some point. Illinois State wants to move up to FBS and probably will in the next 5-10 years. If there is more fracturing and the A10 gets hit, I could even see Bradley getting in. We have next to zero options without football. Realignment isn't finished. And there is some thought that these ultra large 14-16+ conferences won't last and may fall apart (to some extent) which would lead to more restructuring.

I think the realignment, at least to the extent that it would affect the MVC, is done. Any hopes for the BIg 12 falling apart seem hopelessly dead as the conference seems stronger than ever. If Creighton or WSU were going to leave, I think they would have done so already. Geography is really working against both of our programs.

[SubGod22]

I think the realignment, at least to the extent that it would affect the MVC, is done. Any hopes for the BIg 12 falling apart seem hopelessly dead as the conference seems stronger than ever. If Creighton or WSU were going to leave, I think they would have done so already. Geography is really working against both of our programs.

I can't argue with that. Personally, I have no problem playing FCS. But I do think that if we do bring football back, they have to try and build it to be ready for a jump if/when it becomes available.

As far as realignment, I don't think we've seen the last of it. Things may stabalize for a bit, but if more conferences do decide to move to 16, there will be more options in CUSA, MWC and the Sun Belt. There just aren't enough conferences available for nonfootball playing schools to move up. Essentially there's the A10, which is pretty full right now and the Big East. But the BE isn't adding basketball onlies at this point and they wouldn't go this far west to do so. Starting a new conference is too risky as there's no auto bid for 7 years I think. It could be 5 but I'm not 100% sure. That's a lot to risk for a number of schools. I do wish there were a midwestern version of the A10 to some degree. The Valley used to be a big deal but fell when they started adding anybody close and lost the bigger schools.

Some wonder if conferences will grow to 16 or eventually fall back into the 10 range. Time will tell, but I'd like for WSU to be prepared. If they can build a football team that's competitive they can draw nicely even for FCS. And the next time things start to shake out like they have this go around, I think we could be semi attractive to a conference as our athletic department is in very good shape. And if we boost our research endevours as the new President seems to want to do, we could look better on the academic side of things as well.

Even if the XII implodes at some point, I don't think that would really benefit any of us. If they try and hold it together without the likes of Texas and Oklahoma, there would be a really outside chance of getting in if we had football. But they'd look to Tulsa, Tulane, Louisville, Colorado State, Cincy, New Mexico first. And probably others like Souther Miss. If the BE has issues they could go for someone like Houston (if they were losing one or two Texas schools). I've heard some good things recently about Arkansas State as well but not sure if they'd be an option for a scrambling XII. Even MTSU would be considered before us.

Georgraphy does suck in all of this. And we just don't have quite the media market to make up for it. We're not horrible as I believe we're 56 or so. But that's not enough to make up for other things, like lack of football.

[AndShock]

Bardo's question was penetrating, "Who do you want to beat?".

I would like to see us be competitive in CUSA. That would require a metric ton of cash.

KU and K-State are both beating Valley schools by 3 at half and UNI took Top 15 Wisconsin down to the wire. It's a shame the program was dropped in the first place $ wise, but the results today should at least show that it can't be that hard to compete once a football program gets going.

[SpanglerFan316]

KU and K-State are both beating Valley schools by 3 at half and UNI took Top 15 Wisconsin down to the wire. It's a shame the program was dropped in the first place $ wise, but the results today should at least show that it can't be that hard to compete once a football program gets going.

The Bears matched 22nd-ranked Kansas State blow for blow for nearly three quarters last Saturday before the Wildcats reeled off 42 unanswered points to run away with a 51-9 victory before a sellout crowd of 50,007 at Bill Snyder Family Stadium. Kansas State rushed for 324 yards-including 222 in the second half--on 40 total carries, and Collin Klein passed for 169 yards and a pair of second-half touchdowns to lead the Wildcat attack. http://www.missouristatebears.com/sp...090412aaa.html http://www.missouristatebears.com/sp...090112aaa.html

Tony Pierson and Taylor Cox each rushed for more than 100 yards, leading Kansas to a 31-17 victory over South Dakota State in the football season opener for both teams Saturday night at Memorial Stadium. http://www.gojacks.com//ViewArticle....CLID=205678407

[SpanglerFan316]

NORMAL, Ill. - The No. 19 Illinois State Redbirds utilized a balanced offensive attack, and suffocating defensive effort, en route to a 56-14 season opening win over Dayton in front of 4,840 fans Saturday afternoon at Hancock Stadium. http://www.goredbirds.com/sports/m-f...090112aaa.html

WSU can build a football program with attendance under 5000. :uncomfortableness:

ADDED: How about this Redbird board comment? http://www.redbirdfan.net/forum/view...=3647&start=30
The rain and threat of rain clearly affected the size of the crowd (4,840) and the # of tailgaters but I don't mind. The true Redbird Football Fans - the same faces I regularly see at games - were there and I think we all had a good time. This team has a chance to gain fans as the season moves forward and the enthusiam level should go up with larger crowds.

[SpanglerFan316]

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/09/05/usc-walk-on-loses-scholarship-to-make-room-for-linebacker-recently-released-from-jail/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Football builds character. :topsy_turvy: