[POST GAME] WSU vs SD ST - What We Learned

[1972Shocker]

The terrible 3's -- to recap the 3 minute and 33 second time period described by Wufan from the 14:15 mark to the 10:42 mark:

SDSU outscores the Shocks 21 to 3.

4 Turnovers by our point guard:
1 By Rags (offensive foul due to an aggressive but poor decision to attack the basket 1 on 2)
2 By D-Will
1 By Toure

Shocks 1-6 from the field
Gabe 0-3
D-Will 0-1
Garrett 0-1
DK 1-1 (3-pointer which was immediately answered by Leonard)

2 Rebounds:
Gabe - 1 Offensive
Stutz - 1 Defensive
Of course, when you don't get any shots due to turnovers and your opponent isn't missing there won't be a lot of rebounds.

3 Fouls including two and 1's and Gabe's intentional
SDS hit 4-4 in this stretch on an otherwise poor FT shooting night for them

3 Timeouts at 14:04, 12:53 and 10:42 plus the play stoppage after the intentional foul.

[wufan]

I agree with Aargh. JT tends to put up some questionable shots at times. I also think TM does this at times too. During that stretch, what the shocks needed to do was bring the ball up and slow the pace down. Instead, they pushed the ball and rushed some shots. All that did was add to the tempo that SDST was thriving off of at the time. Frankly, I am getting tired of seeing our "bigs" taking jump shots. As big and strong of a team we like to tell everyone we have, this team is a perimeter team. I think they should put the ball in the post on every possession personally. Even if the shot is not there, it might lead to some open 3pt shots. But HCGM gets paid to coach, so he must know something I don't. Maybe our "bigs" aren't very good and he is working around that.

Again, one jump shot and one blocked shot in the paint during the run...

I am not talking about the run. I am referring to their game as a whole. Our bigs are soft and don't take it the hoop enougn, IMO. They settle for jump shots too often.

I was responding to this comment. We may have needed to slow the tempo, but only two shots taken in one minute and 11 seconds. Not sure how much slower you can get.

[Ricardo del Rio]

SD TO - 8
SD F - 17
SD TO + F = 25

WSU TO - 13
WSU F - 25

WSU TO + F = 38

I don't know much, but if a team has 38 TO+F and the opponent has 25 TO + F, then the probability of winning by the former is about 1% +/- 1%.


1. I would not mind seeing Toure moved to the 3 full time. Bring Hatch off the bench.

2. There will be plenty of not so tough games for the next 3 months to develop Ragland or Williams into a competent guard.

3. I would not mind this experiment. Give EO increasing minutes for the rest of the season. Tell him to rebound, guard, block shots and dunk. Nothing else. Forget about hooks, jumpers, fallaways, etc. If we make it to the Big Dance, we absolutely gotta have a big time defensive presence at the 5. Garrett is not an option.

[wufan]

SD TO - 8
SD F - 17
SD TO + F = 25

WSU TO - 13
WSU F - 25

WSU TO + F = 38

I don't know much, but if a team has 38 TO+F and the opponent has 25 TO + F, then the probability of winning by the former is about 1% +/- 1%.


1. I would not mind seeing Toure moved to the 3 full time. Bring Hatch off the bench.

2. There will be plenty of not so tough games for the next 3 months to develop Ragland or Williams into a competent guard.

3. I would not mind this experiment. Give EO increasing minutes for the rest of the season. Tell him to rebound, guard, block shots and dunk. Nothing else. Forget about hooks, jumpers, fallaways, etc. If we make it to the Big Dance, we absolutely gotta have a big time defensive presence at the 5. Garrett is not an option.

Gotta agree with these sentiments over all. I think you start Rags, DK, and Toure. Hatch is a VERY valuable part of this team. He has earned his time. That doesn't mean he can't do it off the bench. Start your three most talented and bring three very talented players off the bench.

I really think our post defense is reasonable/good. We are not being posted up and pushed out of the way. Our guards are allowing opponents to drive forcing our bigs out of position. That causes fouls by everyone and easy baskets. Learn to stop the drive and we suddenly become a stud defensive team.

[pinstripers]

I don't understand. You want Hatch to continue to get his minutes but not start? Is starting that important?

TM has been very good in his career as a 2, you think he struggles as a 1, so now you want him to play a 3?

[wufan]

Murry has played quite a bit of three. Every minute last year that Hatch didn't play the three, Murry did.

I think Murry is more talented than Hatch and I think that Hatch often gets into foul trouble at the beginning of the game. Putting Murry against a more athletic starting SF and brining Hatch in against the back-up makes us better at the SF. That's all. It's not a big deal. Start or come off the bench, Hatch will play 18-25 minutes every game same as Murry. Start Ragland and DK, then I prefer Murry, but if its Hatch, I can't argue.

[ShockTalk]

So how many here really think that we would have been better than 5-2 after 7 games? If we had beat UConn, we'd more likely be 4-3 now.

Our 2 losses have been to (currently) top 20 teams, one of whom won the Maui tourney which included MI St, UK, Washington. One lose on a neutral court, the other on the road. Opportunities lost, absolutely,...bad losses, NO.

Who here thought that Rags or DWill would just pick up where Clev left off. Wasn't going to happen. Rags is shooting well .433/.389/1.000, 4th in scoring, has 23 assists to 7 TOs. I'm very pleased with this this early in his DI career.

A number of people here were complaining about the number of 3s (quick/bad) the Shox took. Well, they were 9-18 and .427 for the season. Pretty darn good I'd say.

Did I like the way we play at SDSU, losing by 14? No. Nevertheless, we shot .464 FG, .500 3s, had 6 steals, 6 blocked shots, and, yes, only 13 TO (even if 4 were at a very bad, short time in the game). Dispite that 3+ minute twight light zone and the last 1:48, we actually outscored SDSU 66-55 the other 35 minutes. Problems? Oh yeah!! Rebounding (a usual strength, averaging 36 pg) was a disaster. Only 13 assists won't cut it either, however, there too, including this game, we're averaging 18 pg.

Disapointments early this season? Yes. Garrett needs to find whatever he lost from the end of late last season. And quickly! PT will demand it. I was hoping Gabe would be more of an offensive weapon, but he is leading the team in rebounding in only 16+ minutes pg. DWill hasn't been what we were hoping for, but he needs to understand that he has a number of upperclassmen ahead of him (a good program should), not press, play his game, and make the most of his opportunities.

Armchair coach comments: In tougher games, reduce most of the playing to 8/9 players. We have 10 players with 15 minutes or better per game. Any combination of players on the court must have 2/3 experienced upperclassmen. Cannot have combinations that are not offensive threats. It doesn't matter who starts!! It's most important that we have solid combination of players on the court at all times against good competition. As an example, quality teams will expose an inexperienced DI back court of DWill and Rags. That, I believe, will change. Garrett and/or Gabe must step up offensively as JT is the only threat at the 4/5 right now.

:posterwsu: :wsu_posters: :goshocks: :posterwu:

[wufan]

Very well said!

[Aargh]

I misplaed Durley's outside shots. They were around the 6 minute mark n the first half as the score went from 24-26 to 24-29.

I remembered they were at a crucial time and my memory morphed that into the 3-minute collapse. I checked Durley's entire lines in the second half - he was pretty much MIA. That was true for our entire front court.

WSU may have a pretty good front court by MVC standards. By upper-level D1 standards, they look look a lot better in airports than in games.

[shockall]

What we learned.......that all the hype we developed in one another sold some tickets & shirts, but did little to energize the ability & efficiency of our basketball team. We are still lacking some key ingredients to a championship style basketball team, and I'm sure HCGM would be the first to agree.

We may win the Valley this year if we stay healthy, but would be due to the weakness of the conference this year. An injury as slight as a broken pinky finger could be our achilles heel this year.

[ShockerFever]

We win if we play at Koch. Bookmark that with candy and nuts, but we would.

But we didn't play at Koch. We played at SDSU.

If this team is NCAA caliber, they're gonna have to learn to play well on the road and get some wins there. I thought we played 30-35 minutes of good basketball (relative to the competition) last night. The minutes we played bad... we played REALLY bad.

[ShockerFever]

So how many here really think that we would have been better than 5-2 after 7 games? If we had beat UConn, we'd more likely be 4-3 now.

I get that. 5-2 is pretty much as expected given the opponents. But not winning at least one of the "big" games has me questioning if we're NCAA ready. I don't care how weak the Valley is, I just don't see us rolling off 15 or 16 wins in this conference. It's too much of a grind and frankly we haven't proven that we can consistently play good basketball yet.

If everyone expected us to be 5-2 or 4-3 at this point, they either think we need to win it all in St. Louis or run off an incredible winning streak to make the NCAA's. Which one do you have us doing?

[wufan]

I misplaed Durley's outside shots. They were around the 6 minute mark n the first half as the score went from 24-26 to 24-29.

I remembered they were at a crucial time and my memory morphed that into the 3-minute collapse. I checked Durley's entire lines in the second half - he was pretty much MIA. That was true for our entire front court.

WSU may have a pretty good front court by MVC standards. By upper-level D1 standards, they look look a lot better in airports than in games.

And Ragland's poor decision making/poor play? Inability to handle the ball? Do you still believe that lead to the run by SDSU, or was that just a general comment?

[SHOXAAC]

I know it, kcshocker11. But he still has room to grow there. I would put Stutz on the neck machine, upright rows and shoulder presses three to five times a week this summer.. until he puked. That would straighten his upper-body posture.. he needs it.

Please give GS talk a rest people. He will not be much better by adding 20 pounds, doing work on the neck machine, leg machine, toe nail machine, or any other machine. It doesn't change the fact he is sloooooooooooow afoot, sloooooooow to react. He will get a little better at best. Come on now, let's not drink to much of the GS koolaid. Just as I have said about Aaron Ellis "He is who we thought he is." No more, no less. Let's acknowledge what we have and move on!!!

[SHOXAAC]

Stutz still needs to add weight/muscle to his upper, upper-body: neck, traps and shoulders. His posture is not good around that area.

I say redshirt him next year.

See previous post.