The Rise & Fall of the Valley

[The Mad Hatter]

I'm shocked but not shocked Doug Elgin still has a job

Elgin gets a lot of grief, and some of it deserved, but I think too often the failings of the Valley are placed as his feet when the real blames lies with the school presidents who ultimately have veto power of anything Elgin wants to do. After all, Elgin was the one who implemented the successful scheduling requirements that resulted in the Valley receiving 4 NCAA bids, but the presidents who ultimately scrapped it.

Do I think that Elgin could have put his foot down with the presidents more? Sure, but I think that the problematic policies didn't primarily originate with him, he just didn't have the will or power to prevent his bosses from implementing their "Valley of fairness and cheapness" policies. In fact, it would be hypocritical for the school presidents to fire Elgin for not fighting them more on their policies that have left the MVC in its current state.

[ShockerPrez]

It's not all Elgin's fault. The AD's, Presidents and fans/supporters are who make the individual programs what they are. What decisions does he really have ultimate control over? And how do you force schools to spend money they don't have, or don't want to spend?

I don't know. If it was up to the conference to make teams not suck, then the commissioners would be marquee gigs in the NCAA. But they aren't.

[calfan]

The delusion for the MVC is trying to maintain division 2 football. As others have said the schools either don't have or want to spend their money for a better basketball program. That's not on Elgin.

[proshox]

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the recent fall of the Valley. (I agree with others, that long term the fall began after the Valley lost Louisville, Memphis and Cincy). The recent fall started when the Valley relaxed the RPI scheduling mandate. The Valley was a regular multiple bid conference after the scheduling mandate was put in place. After it was relaxed, it became a 1 or 2 bid conference. Then schools couldn't keep coaches and couldn't increase their basketball budgets. So the downward spiral just continued. Once Creighton left, the downward spiral became a death spiral in my opinion.

Absolutely incorrect. You are a good team or a bad team. Scheduling mandates only rack up losses.

[Shocker-maniac]

It all comes down to $$$. Without the resources or the proper allocation of resources, a program cannot compete at the level of WSU.

Along those lines I'm going to throw a bit of a curveball, and say that the rise of the MVFC to the premier FCS conference has been detrimental to the performance of MVC basketball. Especially with the addition of the Dakota schools that seem to have bigger budgets than the rest of the schools. I presume that at least some of the schools that compete in the MVFC have reallocated more resources towards football to stay competitive.

[1972Shocker]

It all comes down to $$$. Without the resources or the proper allocation of resources, a program cannot compete at the level of WSU.

Along those lines I'm going to throw a bit of a curveball, and say that the rise of the MVFC to the premier FCS conference has been detrimental to the performance of MVC basketball. Especially with the addition of the Dakota schools that seem to have bigger budgets than the rest of the schools. I presume that at least some of the schools that compete in the MVFC have reallocated more resources towards football to stay competitive.

This past year Illinois State and UNI tied for 4th in the MVFC at 4-4 and Indiana State, Missouri State ans Southern Illinois were in a 3-way tie 8th (last) at 2-6. Overall, Illinois State was 6-6 and the other 4 teams were below 500.

Just one year but if this is the trend than the "Valley" schools are strugging to keep in FCS football as well.

[Shocker_Power]

I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone put the blame for the fall of the MVC squarely where it belongs? That being in the hands of HCGM. It was he who raised the bar so high that the other schools couldn't compete!

[tw805]

I think the conference statement speaks volumes.

The league isn't defined by any one institution, and therein lies the issue. The problem is that 9/10 of the league sits on low budgets and acceptance of mediocrity, futility, and inertia. That did come to define the league, which is why you lost both the remaining bright spots in the last few years. The league would have been better off had it actually been defined by one member, and everyone else tried to rise and meet that definition. Instead, you went the other direction, and your conference is undoubtedly doomed.

[Shocker-maniac]

This past year Illinois State and UNI tied for 4th in the MVFC at 4-4 and Indiana State, Missouri State ans Southern Illinois were in a 3-way tie 8th (last) at 2-6. Overall, Illinois State was 6-6 and the other 4 teams were below 500.

Just one year but if this is the trend than the "Valley" schools are strugging to keep in FCS football as well.

Can't speak to trends because I don't follow the MVFC, but if I recall correctly ILLST played in the FCS national championship game or at least semi-finals a year or two ago. I also believe that SWMO just built a new football stadium in the past few years. That is literally about the extent of my knowledge of the MVFC.

[DaytonCane]

Why didn the scheduling mandate got axed?

[podunkboy]

I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone put the blame for the fall of the MVC squarely where it belongs? That being in the hands of HCGM. It was he who raised the bar so high that the other schools couldn't compete!

We should NEVER call into question the motives/results of HCGM, the blame should fall on the deep-pocketed donors and dreamers who brought in both Coaches Turgeon and Marshall and put their money where their mouths were to support and retain HCGM. The other MVC schools have chosen not to make the same jump, and at tournament time WSU keeps hearing "well, who did they actually play?"

[ShockTalk]

Why didn the scheduling mandate got axed?

Other schools' presidents and, IMO, a lack of backbone MVC commish.

[proshox]

Other schools' presidents and, IMO, a lack of backbone MVC commish.

Because it is counter productive.

The best schedule as a conference is one where the teams all when about 80% of their games. At the end of the day your record is way more important than your opponents when it comes to RPI.

Scheduling up and losing 80% of your games kills the conference RPI.

[Rlh04d]

It all comes down to $$$. Without the resources or the proper allocation of resources, a program cannot compete at the level of WSU.

It all comes down to fans, because without the fans, a program doesn't have $$$. And that's what Valley fans gloss over when they pretend like they don't bear the responsibility for the performance of their teams.

Of the eight Valley teams not named Creighton, Wichita State, or Loyola, five of them had their worst average attendance since 2000 in one of the last two years we have full attendance data for. Only Illinois State, UNI, and Southern Illinois don't meet that criteria. Only SIU and UNI had better attendance in 2016 than in 2000 -- Bradley is at 58% of 2000's attendance, Drake 82%, Evansville 61%, Illinois State 79%, Indiana State 54%, and Missouri State 53%. The non-WSU/Creighton/Loyola teams had an avg attendance of 51,212 in 2000 and 37,853 in 2016. That alone is more than Creighton averaged between 2000 and 2013. And none of that requires comparing the Valley of today to the Valley of Death -- it's not even sniffing the leaner years before it. And even if the Valley hits a grand slam and replaces us with all three of Murry St., Valpo, and Belmont, the three combined would still result in a net attendance loss for the conference.

UNI's growth has been steady if unimpressive. The rest of the Valley's fans quit on their programs.

[Shocker-maniac]

It all comes down to fans, because without the fans, a program doesn't have $$$. And that's what Valley fans gloss over when they pretend like they don't bear the responsibility for the performance of their teams.

Of the eight Valley teams not named Creighton, Wichita State, or Loyola, five of them had their worst average attendance since 2000 in one of the last two years we have full attendance data for. Only Illinois State, UNI, and Southern Illinois don't meet that criteria. Only SIU and UNI had better attendance in 2016 than in 2000 -- Bradley is at 58% of 2000's attendance, Drake 82%, Evansville 61%, Illinois State 79%, Indiana State 54%, and Missouri State 53%. The non-WSU/Creighton/Loyola teams had an avg attendance of 51,212 in 2000 and 37,853 in 2016. That alone is more than Creighton averaged between 2000 and 2013. And none of that requires comparing the Valley of today to the Valley of Death -- it's not even sniffing the leaner years before it.

UNI's growth has been steady if unimpressive. The rest of the Valley's fans quit on their programs.

ILLST attendance is a little baffling to me. They just fielded the best team they've had in years, but not much uptick in attendance.

Another issue that these MVC schools have is a relatively small base of corporate donors to draw support from. Also, many of them are primarily teacher schools so probably not spitting out a lot of wealthy alums.

Personally if I was in the MVC, I would be excited about the potential additions of Murray State, Valpo, and possibly even Belmont. Given the circumstances, I think those additions are best case scenario. Any of those programs would have been a much better add than Loyola.