KU fans just mad cause Wichita State was the last Kansas team in the final 4

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I make no argument other than how far you will defend all things KU.

I'll defend Donald Trump if someone makes an obviously unfair statement against him. Thank you for the compliment that I care about the truth.

[Kel Varnsen]

I'm willing to admit that KenPom overvalues WSU due to the domination (blowouts) of our conference. How much? I don't know. But it also seems to overvalue the Big 12, if the NCAA tournament is the benchmark.

Should a few games in the NCAA tournament be THE benchmark to judge a metric, rather than the 34 games leading up to it?

I say no, it shouldn't. So how do we judge the Big 12?

Something about their non-conf scheduling has discovered a "sweet spot" in the analytics that doesn't translate to success in the NCAA tournament when compared to the other power conferences. I'm just fine with admitting they are a solid, highly competitive regular-season conference. I wonder if it has to do with the bottom few teams being marginally better than their equivalents in other conferences. I wish I had time to do some research on that, but I don't. When the MVC was a top-7 league, it was largely due to the strength of the bottom half.

You certainly bring up good points. Clearly, not every conference's teams perform on a perfect bell curve. Some may have more teams towards the bottom but one or two really strong teams, and some may have more teams towards the top but a few at the bottom bring the overall strength down. I think KenPom using the AdjEM of a team expected to go .500 in a particular league is a great way to adjust for it, because to achieve a .500 record, you've got to perform to the expectations of the majority of teams in that league (I don't know if I explained that well, but hopefully you get the idea). You've got to be pretty good in a top-heavy league, and you only have to be below average or average in a poor league. 8 of the 10 teams in the Big 12 finished in the Top 50 in KenPom as of today, and there's a decent distribution overall that might even skew towards more strong teams in the Big 12.

I think we can judge teams by the overall body of work, personally. I don't believe the Big 12 has discovered some "sweet spot" in terms of non-conference scheduling, at the very least because KenPom and other advanced stat sites adjust for quality of opponent based on efficiency (unlike the RPI).

However, when it comes to the RPI, I 100% believe the Big 12 and other P5 conferences have gamed it in order to get as many teams in the tournament as possible or ensure that a school's team receives a bid. That part about the selection committee needs to be fixed, and I think there's a general consensus on this board as such.

[molly jabali]

I make no argument other than how far you will defend all things KU.

I love this give and take, and find JH4P to be wrong on occasion, but I don't find him to be a KU apologist...

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I make no argument other than how far you will defend all things KU.

I enjoy seeing how far people will take a flawed argument out of emotional dislike of a person or entity. This board has an abundance of KU haters who can't be reasonable. Watching their silly responses to basic, fair statements is entertaining. It really has nothing to do with KU for me. I root against the Jayhawks every game, but I can be fair to them at the same time.

[wufan]

I enjoy seeing how far people will take a flawed argument out of emotional dislike of a person or entity. This board has an abundance of KU haters who can't be reasonable. Watching their silly responses to basic, fair statements is entertaining. It really has nothing to do with KU for me. I root against the Jayhawks every game, but I can be fair to them at the same time.

I have to agree with Spok or JH4P on this one. To do otherwise would be illogical.

[shockmonster]

So you are arguing that Oubre hasn't performed in line with being a top 30 pick?

Oubre was over valued as a college player out of high school. He was talented but we know that it takes more than talent to be a very good college basketball player and NBA ready. There are a number of facts that show this. Zach Brown's competing harder than Oubre for a loose ball during our Sweet 16 game, the fact that he needed a year of NBA under his belt, etc. some players are physically ready to perform but mentally behind. That was Oubre, Diallo, selden, and more. You get the picture.

[Heinro]

Oubre was over valued as a college player out of high school. He was talented but we know that it takes more than talent to be a very good college basketball player and NBA ready. There are a number of facts that show this. Zach Brown's competing harder than Oubre for a loose ball during our Sweet 16 game, the fact that he needed a year of NBA under his belt, etc. some players are physically ready to perform but mentally behind. That was Oubre, Diallo, selden, and more. You get the picture.

Even if I agreed to this, this isn't Oubre's fault. The NBA values potential alone. Freshman who can go in the first round have almost no choice but to do so. They are risking more than they can potentially earn by staying. And if you're not in the top 10-15 picks, your performance as a sophomore isn't really going to help you get there. You will just get jumped by the 10-15 best freshman/international players the next year.

Stating he needed a year in the NBA proves what? Ron and Fred have both have had growing pains; they were 4 and 5 year seniors. The NBA is a different level of athlete, different level of skill, just because you need a year in the NBA to adjust doesn't at all mean you aren't NBA ready. Maybe it means you aren't destined to be an NBA All Star.

I can't really believe I'm defending KU players, but I'll agree with Jamar, the mindset in most of these posts is absurd.

[shockmonster]

You are saying more than my point. I was just pointing out even though the NBA held him in high esteem, we had better college players.

[WstateU]

I enjoy seeing how far people will take a flawed argument out of emotional dislike of a person or entity. This board has an abundance of KU haters who can't be reasonable. Watching their silly responses to basic, fair statements is entertaining. It really has nothing to do with KU for me. I root against the Jayhawks every game, but I can be fair to them at the same time.

I have to agree with Spock or JH4P on this one. To do otherwise would be illogical.

[jazztrane]

Every year I argue with my old boss about the B12 being overrated, they get credit for quality wins against each other, then flame out when faced with legit competition.

For me its like if ISUr, MSU and UNI had good recruiting classes and somehow were all ranked Top 25 pre-season (I know, I know, just stay with me for sake of the example). They coast through their non-con of nobodies and all come into conference still ranked (along with WSU of course). So automatically WSU gets more quality wins, plus whenever Evansville or ISUb knocks off an MSU they get a quality win and move up, so when they turn around and lose the return trip it doesn't knock them down as far (and the other team gets a "quality" win beating a team that was rated higher due to beating the same team earlier).

So you have an inflated conference due to all their quality wins and losses to each other, and get 3-4 invites to the NCAA tournament, where two lose in the first round, one in the second, and only WSU moves on (due to their higher seeding for having so many "quality" wins in conference).

Isn't that essentially what the B12 is?!?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Every year I argue with my old boss about the B12 being overrated, they get credit for quality wins against each other, then flame out when faced with legit competition.

They performed almost exactly in line with expectations this year. Past years may have been different, but now is a funny time to try and make your point because the latest results don't back it up.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Oubre was over valued as a college player out of high school. He was talented but we know that it takes more than talent to be a very good college basketball player and NBA ready. There are a number of facts that show this. Zach Brown's competing harder than Oubre for a loose ball during our Sweet 16 game, the fact that he needed a year of NBA under his belt, etc. some players are physically ready to perform but mentally behind. That was Oubre, Diallo, selden, and more. You get the picture.

Funny that you posted the following statement next in response to @Heinro:.

You are saying more than my point. I was just...

You too are saying more than my point. I don't care if Oubre was "overvalued" out of high school. I never commented on that. In fact, to be honest, I don't even care how good of a college player he was.

The statement was made that Oubre didn't "deserve" to be drafted. THAT is what I found comically misguided, fueled from pent-up KU hatred. Don't quote me if you are only looking to ignore my point and go on a tangent.

[Shocker1388]

Over all KU chokes every time in the tourney! So it's either you're a KU lover or hate them and well for me it's F*** KU! Go shox!

[AZ Shocker]

...well there's always next year. Good conference but not God status how the P-5 leagues present themselves with all the football money. It is what it is.

I'll always remember when the Valley got 4 (and should've gotten 5 teams in) and some media were trying to throw around the idea the MVC schools played the system (RPI) to warrant those 4 teams getting in. Oh the irony in that thought.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Over all KU chokes every time in the tourney! So it's either you're a KU lover or hate them and well for me it's F*** KU! Go shox!

Overall... every time. lol

Also, nice false binary choice.

Go Shox.