NCAA Tournament Scores and Discussion Thread

[Cdizzle]

Ohh can I play. If you are a really good team you don't lose to the last place team in the valley. WSU's final four team wasn't really good.

The inevitable outcome. Though we are talking about great teams, not good. And again, SIU was in the 49th percentile of D1 teams. But other than that, absolutely, the WSU team that lost to SIU was not a great team.

Luckily they added Ron Baker.

[ShockingButTrue]

Oh, you were mimicing the outliers. Got it.

Somebody on this board added that it was "sad" when we lost to UNI at their gym. Was that outlier speak also?

And who said the b12 undewhelmed? Musberger?

From where I'm sitting they just had their best tourney performance in over 10-13 years. I witnessed a team lose at >home< to a Valley outlier who then turned around and beat the chickens by 15+ points. Did anyone see the b12 vs. SEC soiree? THAT was underwhelming.

And you'll have to dig deep into kempom to ever make me even consider that the b12 even stood with the ACC anywhere at anytime... You need to stop with all the b12 bloviating. Don't believe everything you read on phognet.

I honesty believe you know better.

[rayc]

More crap teams at the bottom of the ACC to pull down it's in-season conference ranking?

Nah, it just shows that the Big12 is a little better than the ACC at gaming the RPI. The conference rankings are almost exclusively determined by the OOC win/loss
percentage. By the time the conference starts the conference rankings are pretty much set for the season.

If the bottom teams of conference A schedule nothing but wins and bottom teams from conference B schedule a variety of teams, conference A will generally be rated as the higher conference.

[Dave Stalwart]

If I read the words straw man one more time on a basketball forum...

Has anyone addressed the fact that WuShock is a straw man?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Closer, but still no. You're really kind of making my point for me. Rutgers was in the 61st percentile. Is 95 points in the 61st percentile for opponent points allowed this year? I'd wager no. Keep digging. You'll find one.

Come on @Cdizzle, your 61st percentile stat is irrelevant and even deceptive the way you used it. Elite teams don't merely win 61% of the time against teams like Rutgers. They win 99%. This year the RPI top 25 was 135-2 vs teams 200+. A team like 2015 Wisconsin, not just top 25 good, but top 5 good, losing to Rutgers, was a crazy outlier, and it didn't mean that Wisconsin wasn't still really good.

2013 WSU was a top 25 defensive team. They only allowed 70 points 5 times in 39 games, and only allowed 80+ pts once. That one bad performance just happened to be 91 pts vs Creighton. 2013 Creighton was good, but they were no 2016 Villanova. WSU held Creighton to 68 and 64 pts in the other 2 meetings that year. That game in Omaha was a freak outlier, and I think you would agree that WSU was still a really good defensive team that year.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

And who said the b12 undewhelmed? Musberger?

I did. Good grief.

And you'll have to dig deep into kempom to ever make me even consider that the b12 even stood with the ACC anywhere at anytime

Considering I made a detailed post showing statistics and arguing that the Big 12 has NOT performed as well as the ACC in recent years, I'm really not sure what else I can say. Once again... good grief.

[Cdizzle]

Come on @Cdizzle, your 61st percentile stat is irrelevant and even deceptive the way you used it. Elite teams don't merely win 61% of the time against teams like Rutgers. They win 99%. This year the RPI top 25 was 135-2 vs teams 200+.

2013 WSU was a top 25 defensive team. They only allowed 70 points 5 times in 39 games, and only allowed 80+ pts once. That one bad performance just happened to be 91 pts vs Creighton. 2013 Creighton was good, but they were no 2016 Villanova. WSU held Creighton to 68 and 64 pts in the other 2 meetings that year. That game in Omaha was a freak outlier, and I think you would agree that WSU was still a really good defensive team that year.

It's not irrelevant. It would be irrelevant if I was claiming that giving up 80 points was embarrassing, but I'm not. I'm saying giving up 95, on a neutral court, most definitely is.

I think that 2013 WSU without Ron Baker was a good defensive team. Not really good. Not great. Not elite. 2013 Creighton was also 8th in AdjO while 2016 Villanova is 2nd. That doesn't excuse WSU. I've already said I don't think they were great defensively without Baker. But it isn't the massive difference you imply.

[ShockdaWorld]

I did. Good grief.



Considering I made a detailed post showing statistics and arguing that the Big 12 has NOT performed as well as the ACC in recent years, I'm really not sure what else I can say. Once again... good grief.

I generally question you for my lack of information or if I'm looking for a common thread that I'm just not finding on my own. I hope I don't (at least not always) look like I'm just trying to pick a fight for no other reason than to pick a fight as some appear to do.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

@Cdizzle:, If top 25 is only good, and not "really good" in your book, fine. I'm not interested in a debate on where to draw those lines in terminology.

You originally said OU wasn't a "very good" defense. They were ranked #18, and I'm merely defending that ranking. If #18 doesn't equal "very good" in your mind, so be it.

[Cdizzle]

The 25th ranking of WSU includes 18 games with Ron Baker. The Creighton game did not. I think we can all (unless there are some Evansville lurkers) agree those are two very different teams.

[kcshocker11]

Some people have way to much time on their hands

[MoValley John]

Some people have way to much time on their hands

Agree with the to much time on our hands.

My take. The Big 12 was a pretty darned good conference, but not so good that 70% of their teams should have made the tourney. The ACC was a danged good conference. That said, the Big 12 does game the system with scheduling, that combined with ESPN's investment in the Big 12, you have rigged statistics, along with ESPN talking heads pumping up the Big 12. You end up with an impression of the conference that can't measure up during the tournament.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

The Big 12 played the #3 ranked OOC SOS, as a conference as a whole. The ACC was #4. Both conferences won a similar % of OOC games. 82 & 78% respectively. Both conferences played a very high percentage of non con games at home.

If both conferences were so similar, why do some of you think the Big 12 "gamed the system" while the ACC didn't? I don't see anything to differentiate the two.

[Cdizzle]

Things we've learned today:

1. 4 is greater than 3.
2. Big12 teams suck at defense.
3. JH4P cheapbucks do not appear redeemable at any reputable locations.

[Kung Wu]

If both conferences were so similar, why do some of you think the Big 12 "gamed the system" while the ACC didn't? I don't see anything to differentiate the two.

Straw man!!! He never said that the ACC doesn't game it. Both game it the same way (playing a nasty high percentage of home games and staying away from dangerous teams like the Shox), but one is real and the other gets exposed most years in the tournament.