NCAA Tournament Scores and Discussion Thread

[Horn28Clem30]

Anyone else feel as if Jenkins shot should not have counted since the clock was late getting started?

[ShockdaWorld]

Anyone else feel as if Jenkins shot should not have counted since the clock was late getting started?

First time I've heard of that.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Neither. Just a simple statement of fact based on numbers. I thought you of all people could appreciate it.

Point is, they have a lot of teams (also see pac 12) that aren't that great but get the benefit of riding the RPI coat tails of the big boys in their conference. You can add up the tournament wins from the conference but they only come from 3 teams.

So the answer is "complete rabbit trail to a new topic".

The big 12 did indeed once again underperform in the tournament this year. I just found the change of topic rather abrupt.

[Kel Varnsen]

Anyone else feel as if Jenkins shot should not have counted since the clock was late getting started?

He got the shot off with about 0.6 seconds or so left. At most (and this is being very liberal), the clock started 0.5 seconds late. Shot was good.

[rayc]

The rest:

Texas Tech held Butler (1.162) to 1.09 PPP in their game.
Iowa State held Iona (1.096) to 1.04 PPP, Arkansas-Little Rock (1.081) to 0.97 PPP, and Virginia (1.185) to 1.22 PPP.
Baylor allowed Yale (1.087) to score 1.18 PPP.
Texas allowed UNI (1.072) to score 1.19 PPP.

So the rest was a mixed bag. If you include these, 11 out of 16 times, the Big 12 team held their opponent to fewer PPP than their season average (stats are adjusted per KenPom). Some of these were expected...Baylor's defense was ranked lower than Yale's offense and Iowa State's defense was ranked lower than Virginia's offense.

EDIT: Damn, Jamar beat me to it!

I'm not specifically addressing your comment, just using the numbers you posted.

I find it interesting that the stats used to argue for the Big12 defensive prowess, really don't.

The 6 games used, show that the Big12 teams in the example gave up 1.1150 ppp against teams who were averaging 1.1138 ppp overall.

That shows that the Big12 defensive results were nothing more than average at best, certainly not indicative of outstanding or even good defense.

[Kel Varnsen]

I'm not specifically addressing your comment, just using the numbers you posted.

I find it interesting that the stats used to argue for the Big12 defensive prowess, really don't.

The 6 games used, show that the Big12 teams in the example gave up 1.1150 ppp against teams who were averaging 1.1138 ppp overall.

That shows that the Big12 defensive results were nothing more than average at best, certainly not indicative of outstanding or even good defense.

The problem is you're leaving out the other 10 games Jamar referenced. Also, in their losses, Baylor (Adj. Def. Eff. Rank of 91) and Iowa State (Adj. Def. Eff. Rank of 102) both played against teams with higher ranked offenses than they had defenses. It was expected.

[ShockdaWorld]

I'm not specifically addressing your comment, just using the numbers you posted.

I find it interesting that the stats used to argue for the Big12 defensive prowess, really don't.

The 6 games used, show that the Big12 teams in the example gave up 1.1150 ppp against teams who were averaging 1.1138 ppp overall.

That shows that the Big12 defensive results were nothing more than average at best, certainly not indicative of outstanding or even good defense.

Keep in mind that those stats are only for the 4 "bottom feeders" of the b12-2 tourney teams defensively. The stats for the upper tier were listed elsewhere.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I'm not specifically addressing your comment, just using the numbers you posted.

I find it interesting that the stats used to argue for the Big12 defensive prowess, really don't.

The 6 games used, show that the Big12 teams in the example gave up 1.1150 ppp against teams who were averaging 1.1138 ppp overall.

That shows that the Big12 defensive results were nothing more than average at best, certainly not indicative of outstanding or even good defense.

Texas Tech, Iowa St, and Baylor were all mediocre defensive teams. (Ranked 91st, 93rd, and 102nd nationally) Nobody is arguing otherwise. Texas was decent (ranked 45th) but nothing special. That's why I kept focusing on KU/WVU/OU, as those 3 defenses were far and away superior to the rest of the conference. People have been saying that no one in the Big 12 plays defense. My only real argument has been to show that at the very least, the top 3 teams did indeed play very good defense most nights. The OU debacle vs Villanova was a very clear outlier, and anyone who isn't in this discussion to merely score cheap trash talk points should be able to easily see that.

[Cdizzle]

If you are a very good defense, you don't give up 95. To anyone. Anywhere.

+1 JH4P cheapbuck.

[ShockdaWorld]

So the answer is "complete rabbit trail to a new topic".

The big 12 did indeed once again underperform in the tournament this year. I just found the change of topic rather abrupt.

I'm not arguing for or against a new topic. I'm more interested in the second sentence. "The big 12 did indeed once again underperform in the tournament this year." That's the reason I ask so many questions to you and Kel, who are both obviously more well versed statistically than most of us. I'm trying to figure out why the big12 underperforming in the tournament appears to be more the trend than the outlier. I use "appears", because it's quite possible that it partially looks that way because of my disdain for all things P5 related.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

If you are a very good defense, you don't give up 95. To anyone. Anywhere.

+1 JH4P cheapbuck.

If you are a very good team, you don't lose to Illinois State. Ever. Anywhere.

I love silly rules based on outliers.

[Ricardo del Rio]

I kept looking at Ochefu and thinking, "If only."

[Cdizzle]

If you are a very good team, you don't lose to Illinois State. Ever. Anywhere.

I love silly rules based on outliers.

That doesn't work. I'm willing to go along with the point if it works. Illinois State is a middling team. 95 is not a middling score.

For instance, if you had been able to use Drake in your example, that would have worked.

[molly jabali]

Since it IS Tourney related, I thought the ole' Hound dog was more than gracious last night...don't like him, never will, but thought he did as well as anyone would there....

[ShockingButTrue]

If you are a very good defense, you don't give up 95. To anyone. Anywhere.

+1 JH4P cheapbuck.

Kempom that one.