Official: Wichita State vs Seton Hall Game Thread

[shock]

Throw out the games without Fred and we still are looking at a 50 RPI and a 2-2 record against decent competition with the usual unavoidable MVC SOS. Home wins count less than road ones, and we don't and will not have a quality road win. Neither Seton Hall nor Tulsa were even good teams. Seton Hall has played nobody but us and projects to finish at 70 RPI and miss the tournament. Tulsa is projected around 90. Both around the 50-60 range in KenPom. I wouldn't be surprised if neither makes the tournament.

Even if we make the tournament with a 10-12 seed, this regular season was wasted. We started ranked #9. We aren't even confidant of finishing with a top 9 seed. We started with two pre-Season All-Americans, maybe even PoY candidates. It is a 100% guarantee neither Ron nor Fred makes an All-American list. 100%. You don't national recognition for finishing 21-8 in the MVC. Or even 24-5. We started with national championship aspirations. Now we have NCAA tournament aspirations. We started with this sort of confidence. Now its: "I think we might still be a 10 seed!"

I'm done ranting. This just gets me irrationally angry at fate and the juxtaposition of our expectations and the incredibly disappointing reality. Maybe we redeem ourselves like in 2013 and this all gets forgotten, but right now the season feels more like 2010-2011. If we miss the tournament this season ... I might just have to leave the forum for a year or so just to keep the blood pressure at a healthy level.

[SHOCKvalue]

Some of you have straight up lost your mind. It is one damn game. How some of you can go from euphoric after the Utah game, to OMGgonnaslitmywrists one game later after an OT road loss to a solid opponent, is a thing of strange beauty. If this is you, you might want to seek out some therapy.

Sheesh...

[Kung Wu]

You can definitely blame a handful of those turnovers on the officials though. How many horrible offensive fouls did we have? 5 I think? While I don't agree with the silly notion that the officials cost us the game, I will say it was majorly influenced.

Do you believe that the bad officiating caused the Shox to rack up a few turnovers more than they would have had otherwise, and perhaps Seton Hall _not_ to have a couple turnovers they should have?

More to the point, do you believe that the horrendous officiating caused the Shox to lose 0.5 (one half) of a point in regulation that they might have scored otherwise, and Seton Hall to gain 0.5 of a point they would not have scored otherwise?

[Dave Stalwart]

Do you believe that the bad officiating caused the Shox to rack up a few turnovers more than they would have had ptherwise, and perhaps Seton Hall _not_ to have a couple turnovers they should have?

More to the point, do you believe that the horrendous officiating caused the Shox to lose 0.5 (one half) of a point in regulation that they might have scored otherwise, and Seton Hall to gain 0.5 of a point they would not have scored otherwise?

No kidding. There is a spectrum in basketball and officials CAN cost you a game. It's always treated as a classless maneuver immediately after a game to point to officiating instead of your own faults. But the truth is, every now and then it does happen that a team gets hosed. You point to your own faults because that's what you must do, but in every game there is a possibility that your faults were not as great as the officials faults regarding the outcome of a close game. To never be willing to recognize that after a game may be classy and all but it is still wrong sometimes.

In this game, I thought enough fouls were not called or called in such a way that it greatly affected how Ron and Fred believed they had to play.

[Kung Wu]

No kidding. There is a spectrum in basketball and officials CAN cost you a game. It's always treated as a classless maneuver immediately after a game to point to officiating instead of your own faults. But the truth is, every now and then it does happen that a team gets hosed. You point to your own faults because that's what you must do, but in every game there is a possibility that your faults were not as great as the officials faults regarding the outcome of a close game. To never be willing to recognize that after a game may be classy and all but it is still wrong sometimes.

In this game, I thought enough fouls were not called or called in such a way that it greatly affected how Ron and Fred believed they had to play.

You won't see me bash officials often. Maybe a call here or there but I rarely if ever blame them for affecting the outcome, because they rarely do. Usually bad officiating is bad on both sides of the ball and the decisions sort of nullify each other. This wasn't just bad. It was lopsided. That's a whole other level of bad, and it was clear as day in this game. To say it's "silly" that calling a lopsided game could have caused a +/- 1 point swing in regulation is a bit over defensive.

[ShockerFever]

Some of you have straight up lost your mind. It is one damn game. How some of you can go from euphoric after the Utah game, to OMGgonnaslitmywrists one game later after an OT road loss to a solid opponent, is a thing of strange beauty. If this is you, you might want to seek out some therapy.

Sheesh...

It's a CBB staple. He expects WSU to win every game by 60 or he melts faster than a sno-cone in Phoenix.

[im4wsu]

Five of our fouls were offensive -- so that also means five of our turnovers were offensive fouls.

I remember one time when Ron crossed mid-court, going left to right on the screen, was bumped from behind, stumbled a half-step and then lost the ball of his fingertips -- no fould, but a turnover. Of Fred's drives into the trees, if only one foul was called, it could have made the difference.

If all of those six turnover possessions were called incorrectly, our TO would have been an above average 15 instead of an ungodly 21. With 6 more shots, maybe we'd made one.

Oh, by the way, I did not wait to after the game to complain about the officiating. I have 7 witnesses that saw me complain at the time -- and most of them compalined also.

[CBB_Fan]

Some of you have straight up lost your mind. It is one damn game. How some of you can go from euphoric after the Utah game, to OMGgonnaslitmywrists one game later after an OT road loss to a solid opponent, is a thing of strange beauty. If this is you, you might want to seek out some therapy.

Sheesh...

Basketball is a game of narratives. A week ago we were a team that had returned. The best 5-4 team ever seen, that had just clobbered a top 25 team. Fred Van Vleet was back, we could obviously erase the games without him.

A week later, we are just a team. A team that with our star still loses games. You can take away Orlando, you can even sort of ignore getting blown out by Tulsa. Can't take away losing to an unranked team, a team with absolutely zero top 25 votes, a team that has played nothing and nobody and lost 2 two games. Can't take away our savior shooting 33% from the field with 6 TOs, or Baker shooting 38.5% with 5 TOs. When you are defined by a very limited number of games, a terrible outcome in one single game can have a big impact in the way people view your team.

I am angry, and every Shocker fan has a right to be. Holier-than-thou fans are just as aggravating to me as any doomsday crier. The incredible narcissism to declare their emotions superior, their reactions correct, and to denounce other Shocker fans because they react differently. It is disgusting, and just as irrational as the actions of the pessimists. This was just a game, but it was the arguably most important game of our season before March because it is the game that will define the national perception of our program for the longest period of time (at least until UNI, maybe until March). It showcased that we aren't a worldbeater even fully armed, and for a program relying on the eye test that is a much bigger blow than just losing to a 35-50 RPI team on the road.

[Kel Varnsen]

Basketball is a game of narratives. A week ago we were a team that had returned. The best 5-4 team ever seen, that had just clobbered a top 25 team. Fred Van Vleet was back, we could obviously erase the games without him.

A week later, we are just a team. A team that with our star still loses games. You can take away Orlando, you can even sort of ignore getting blown out by Tulsa. Can't take away losing to an unranked team, a team with absolutely zero top 25 votes, a team that has played nothing and nobody and lost 2 two games. Can't take away our savior shooting 33% from the field with 6 TOs, or Baker shooting 38.5% with 5 TOs. When you are defined by a very limited number of games, a terrible outcome in one single game can have a big impact in the way people view your team.

I am angry, and every Shocker fan has a right to be. Holier-than-thou fans are just as aggravating to me as any doomsday crier. The incredible narcissism to declare their emotions superior, their reactions correct, and to denounce other Shocker fans because they react differently. It is disgusting, and just as irrational as the actions of the pessimists. This was just a game, but it was the arguably most important game of our season before March because it is the game that will define the national perception of our program for the longest period of time (at least until UNI, maybe until March). It showcased that we aren't a worldbeater even fully armed, and for a program relying on the eye test that is a much bigger blow than just losing to a 35-50 RPI team on the road.

You bring fair points. I happen to slightly disagree that out at large chances are lost, simply because we were at a very similar point after our game vs. GW last year. But there's plenty of room for a different opinion.

I'm just sick of all the back and forth bickering and name calling that's gone on lately on here for the most part. We're debating over the performance of a few adults and thirteen 18-24 year olds for the most part. And it gets annoying. College basketball is fun. And most of us love our Shocks. We're adults. Act like it.

EDIT: clearly not directed at you or anyone specifically. More of the board in general.

[wufan]

Five of our fouls were offensive -- so that also means five of our turnovers were offensive fouls.

I remember one time when Ron crossed mid-court, going left to right on the screen, was bumped from behind, stumbled a half-step and then lost the ball of his fingertips -- no fould, but a turnover. Of Fred's drives into the trees, if only one foul was called, it could have made the difference.

If all of those six turnover possessions were called incorrectly, our TO would have been an above average 15 instead of an ungodly 21. With 6 more shots, maybe we'd made one.

Oh, by the way, I did not wait to after the game to complain about the officiating. I have 7 witnesses that saw me complain at the time -- and most of them compalined also.

One of those offense fouls was the chicks wing by Grady where his score was wiped away. It was the correct call, but a couple of possessions later, his man did the same thing with no call.

There was also the bump on the baseline where Fred stepped out on a shove. The Zach Brown mugging foul was not a TO, but a blown lose ball foul on our be of the court. There are many more. I don't think I've complained about refs ever costing us a game, and maybe they didn't. Maybe it was just my bias viewpoint, but I was astounded and rewound several plays, of which, most I could not come up with an explanation.

[shocka khan]

I'm reading this talk about melting down. I'm not melting down. We need to make some changes. Small ones, but changes nonetheless. I'm a charter member of the 'Wessel ought to be sitting a little more in critical situations club'. That one's been obvious all season.

I'm glad we have Marshall as a coach, but he needs to get this figured out. And he will. And we will be better, both this year and next year.

[ShockRef]

I'm reading this talk about melting down. I'm not melting down. We need to make some changes. Small ones, but changes nonetheless. I'm a charter member of the 'Wessel ought to be sitting a little more in critical situations club'. That one's been obvious all season.

I'm glad we have Marshall as a coach, but he needs to get this figured out. And he will. And we will be better, both this year and next year.

Amazing how little some fans, who actually think they know the game, make some of the most dumbass comments and illustrate they know nothing.

Just because EW doesn't shoot 75% from trey land doesn't mean he isn't making significant contributions to the team.
Watch the whole game and not just the ball being passed around. EW sets more screens, boxes out bigger post players, plays tough defense, etc.

There are a lot of more things to winning a basketball game than just pumping up shot after shot.
The fact that's what you think is the most important and only thing that wins games, demonstrates you don't know Jack **** about it.

That is all.

[Ricardo del Rio]

Five of our fouls were offensive -- so that also means five of our turnovers were offensive fouls.

I remember one time when Ron crossed mid-court, going left to right on the screen, was bumped from behind, stumbled a half-step and then lost the ball of his fingertips -- no fould, but a turnover. Of Fred's drives into the trees, if only one foul was called, it could have made the difference.

If all of those six turnover possessions were called incorrectly, our TO would have been an above average 15 instead of an ungodly 21. With 6 more shots, maybe we'd made one.

Oh, by the way, I did not wait to after the game to complain about the officiating. I have 7 witnesses that saw me complain at the time -- and most of them compalined also.

Since is whining about official calls or non-calls is under discussion, Senora Rio and I have our fav.

A Shocker was in the right corner. He drove the base line. At or near the basket, the defender bumped the Shocker out of bounds with his butt. Turnover. Pirate ball. The baseline ref was staring at the play. I have zero idea how he missed the call. It was not even a close call.

Stuff happens. One hopes that a lot of stuff does not happen.

[shocka khan]

Amazing how little some fans, who actually think they know the game, make some of the most dumbass comments and illustrate they know nothing.

Just because EW doesn't shoot 75% from trey land doesn't mean he isn't making significant contributions to the team.
Watch the whole game and not just the ball being passed around. EW sets more screens, boxes out bigger post players, plays tough defense, etc.

There are a lot of more things to winning a basketball game than just pumping up shot after shot.
The fact that's what you think is the most important and only thing that wins games, demonstrates you don't know Jack **** about it.

That is all.

And neither do you. And because our shooting is in the bottom third of NCAA statistics, you present yourself as a prima Dona ignorant jackass.

I don't give two shits what part of the game you're watching, we're not hitting shots and playing a guy who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle when the game is on the line isn't helping.

[SHOXAAC]

And neither do you. And because our shooting is in the bottom third of NCAA statistics, you present yourself as a prima Dona ignorant jackass.

I don't give two shits what part of the game you're watching, we're not hitting shots and playing a guy who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle when the game is on the line isn't helping.

I certainly don't disagree with all of your takes in this area. And before anybody calls me anything close to an ignorant jackass, I am self-aware I can be that at times, so I beat you to it. The only thing I take issue with is your opinion that Evan lost the game for us due to his missed bomb late in the game. He did not lose the game for us. If any of us believe that, then that is worth being called an ignorant jackass.

It won't be all...I assure you all of this.