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How’s that for an inflammatory title?!
Anyway, in addition to playing I’ve always been fascinated by the statistical side of college basketball. Back when I was knee high to a grasshopper in Section V Row 11, I remember running out of room on my steno pad that I brought to Antoine’s last home game to keep stats (a couple of years later I learned to leave 2 lines for X instead of 1).
One of the things I love about the FVV/Baker/Cotton/Wessel core is that they’re complete basketball players that put up crazy stat lines and contribute in many different ways. Last week I just happened to end up on Fred’s stat page and what I saw didn’t make any sense in the context of any other college basketball point guard that I’d seen in my lifetime.
So, I tried to disprove it and find other PGs that had done the same thing. What I discovered was pretty amazing.
Although scoring is important, in my opinion the 3 primary functions of a college point guard – in order of importance – are:
1. Distribute the basketball and create scoring opportunities efficiently; in my opinion this is most effectively measured by the Assist to Turnover Ratio
2. Defend and create turnovers without fouling; in my opinion this is most effectively measured by Steals versus Fouls
3. Create as many additional possessions as possible; on a net basis in my opinion this is most effectively measured by Steals versus Turnovers
A few things I’d like to note up front before getting to conclusions and what I found: (1) I used Basketball Reference for this, and complete stats in these categories don’t seem to go back further than 25 years or so – so I can’t include guys before then, (2) I might have left someone out, but I doubt it, and (3) I might have had a data entry error, but I doubt it. Part of the reason I’m posting this is for some of our stat-inclined posters to double check it and enhance it.
I’d also like Ken Pomeroy to audit it and Jeff Goodman’s dumb azz to respond to it, but that’s another topic.
Point guards that I looked at were:
My finding and conclusions:
1. Assist to Turnover ratios ranged from 1.6 to 3.0, with most falling in the 2.0 to 2.5 area
2. There were only 8 players that had more Steals than Fouls in their career – Andre Miller, Sherman Douglas, Mateen Cleaves, Kenny Smith, Jason Kidd, Mike Bibby, Kenny Anderson, and Kemba Walker
3. There were only 2 players that had more Steals than Turnovers in their career – Tim Hardaway (Senior) and Aaron Craft, and neither of them were very close to having more Steals than Fouls
4. Of those 10 players, none had an A/TO ratio of better than 2.6, and most were in the 2.0 to 2.5 range
5. Fred Van Vleet is not only the ONLY player on the list to have more steals than fouls AND more steals than turnovers, but he is BY FAR the outlier in terms of Assist to Turnover ratio
The names and stats on this boggle my mind. What a player. Analysis is attached if people want to audit or check it out.
FVV Comp.jpg
Anyway, in addition to playing I’ve always been fascinated by the statistical side of college basketball. Back when I was knee high to a grasshopper in Section V Row 11, I remember running out of room on my steno pad that I brought to Antoine’s last home game to keep stats (a couple of years later I learned to leave 2 lines for X instead of 1).
One of the things I love about the FVV/Baker/Cotton/Wessel core is that they’re complete basketball players that put up crazy stat lines and contribute in many different ways. Last week I just happened to end up on Fred’s stat page and what I saw didn’t make any sense in the context of any other college basketball point guard that I’d seen in my lifetime.
So, I tried to disprove it and find other PGs that had done the same thing. What I discovered was pretty amazing.
Although scoring is important, in my opinion the 3 primary functions of a college point guard – in order of importance – are:
1. Distribute the basketball and create scoring opportunities efficiently; in my opinion this is most effectively measured by the Assist to Turnover Ratio
2. Defend and create turnovers without fouling; in my opinion this is most effectively measured by Steals versus Fouls
3. Create as many additional possessions as possible; on a net basis in my opinion this is most effectively measured by Steals versus Turnovers
A few things I’d like to note up front before getting to conclusions and what I found: (1) I used Basketball Reference for this, and complete stats in these categories don’t seem to go back further than 25 years or so – so I can’t include guys before then, (2) I might have left someone out, but I doubt it, and (3) I might have had a data entry error, but I doubt it. Part of the reason I’m posting this is for some of our stat-inclined posters to double check it and enhance it.
I’d also like Ken Pomeroy to audit it and Jeff Goodman’s dumb azz to respond to it, but that’s another topic.
Point guards that I looked at were:
| Kendall | Marshall |
| Chris | Corchiani |
| Andre | Miller |
| Deron | Williams |
| Gary | Payton |
| Sherman | Douglas |
| Mateen | Cleaves |
| Trey | Burke |
| Jacque | Vaughn |
| Tim | Hardaway (Sr) |
| TJ | Ford |
| Steve | Blake |
| Aaron | Craft |
| Kenny | Smith |
| Jason | Kidd |
| Bobby | Hurley |
| Mike | Bibby |
| Shabazz | Napier |
| Kenny | Anderson |
| Kemba | Walker |
| Peyton | Siva |
| Damon | Stoudamire |
| Kirk | Heinrich |
| Greivis | Vasquez |
| John | Wall |
My finding and conclusions:
1. Assist to Turnover ratios ranged from 1.6 to 3.0, with most falling in the 2.0 to 2.5 area
2. There were only 8 players that had more Steals than Fouls in their career – Andre Miller, Sherman Douglas, Mateen Cleaves, Kenny Smith, Jason Kidd, Mike Bibby, Kenny Anderson, and Kemba Walker
3. There were only 2 players that had more Steals than Turnovers in their career – Tim Hardaway (Senior) and Aaron Craft, and neither of them were very close to having more Steals than Fouls
4. Of those 10 players, none had an A/TO ratio of better than 2.6, and most were in the 2.0 to 2.5 range
5. Fred Van Vleet is not only the ONLY player on the list to have more steals than fouls AND more steals than turnovers, but he is BY FAR the outlier in terms of Assist to Turnover ratio
The names and stats on this boggle my mind. What a player. Analysis is attached if people want to audit or check it out.
FVV Comp.jpg
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