WSU -- Indiana State Postgame Thread

[NCAABound]

Downtown Shocker Brown: So we agree that Marshall has some responsibility for the season.

With respect to this particular game, some coaches (e.g. Altman) would have been more active (e.g. tried different combinations) in trying to win. Each coach has his own style. I think Altman hates losing more than Marshall hates losing; just watch Dana on the sidelines.

This is so totally unfair. I have watched Dana on the sidelines (whine a lot). He is a good coach WHO HAS HAD THE SAME SYSTEM IN PLACE for however many years he has been at CU. His team knows his system and were recruited for his system. Most of our team was recruited for an entirely different system. MT had just as much trouble last year from Vegas on as Marshall is having this year -- the difference being that MT recruited all his team and when he couldn't right the ship and got a good offer to go elsewhere, took it. (And before we go there again, if I had been in his place I would probably have left too. I don't blame MT for leaving nor am I bashing him here.)

You say that ala Altman, Marshall should have "been more active (e.g. tried different combinations) in trying to win." For cryin' out loud man, what do you think the man has been doing all year long, twiddling his thumbs. Do you think he isn't "trying to win." I can't even begin to tell you at what degree of unfairness I think your remarks land.

And if you think Altman hates to lose more than Marshall, I invite YOU to really watch Marshall on the sidelines.

Altman was also 7-19 in his first year at CU.

[SpanglerFan316]

When the team loses (and loses and loses and ...), people here get really thin-skinned. People complain about the players not being tough; these same fans then fail to demonstrate toughness by becoming extremely defensive. :lol:

Shox21: "This is so totally unfair." TOTALLY!!!
"I can't even begin to tell you at what degree of unfairness I think your remarks land." Just try. Start with small words and work your way up.

People on SN are dumping on Gal. Gal has more heart than anyone else on the team not named Matt or Ramon.

There is no question that Marshall wants to win. Is he able to turn this desire into team success? I sure hope so. Did he try every possible combination last night? Did Brett Burley make the trip? He didn't play. Wendell Preadom played for two minutes. While WP is not great, he might have given Matt a little rest (since we should expect overtime by now); Matt and PJ played for 43 minutes each and Ramon played for 40 minutes. How come Ehimen Orukpe didn't get any playing time?? (A joke!! Relax.)

I agree that Marshall does not have much to work with this year and I expect him to have great teams in a few years. I'm a fan of Gregg Marshall but this doesn't mean that he is immune from criticism. Everyone on SN needs to take a big Chill Pill.

[rrshock]

You say that ala Altman, Marshall should have "been more active (e.g. tried different combinations) in trying to win." For cryin' out loud man, what do you think the man has been doing all year long, twiddling his thumbs. Do you think he isn't "trying to win." I can't even begin to tell you at what degree of unfairness I think your remarks land.

If he wasn't trying different combinations, you wouldn't see walk-ons starting and coming off the end of the bench in the first 10 minutes of the game, which both the healthy ones did against SIU.

[SpanglerFan316]

rr: Do Shocker fans think Wendell Preadom or Lance Harris is a better guard for WSU?
If Lance is a better guard now, was he a better guard at the start of the season?
If Lance was a better guard at the start of the season, why didn't he get to play then?
Was it a coaching error not to play Lance earlier in the season?

Does this suggest that Marshall still has things to learn about coaching? Things like "Play the best player, not just the best player on scholarship."

[Shox21]

When the team loses (and loses and loses and ...), people here get really thin-skinned. People complain about the players not being tough; these same fans then fail to demonstrate toughness by becoming extremely defensive. :lol:

Shox21: "This is so totally unfair." TOTALLY!!!
"I can't even begin to tell you at what degree of unfairness I think your remarks land." Just try. Start with small words and work your way up.


I agree that Marshall does not have much to work with this year and I expect him to have great teams in a few years. I'm a fan of Gregg Marshall but this doesn't mean that he is immune from criticism. Everyone on SN needs to take a big Chill Pill.

You talk about others getting defensive -- you have that one covered -- you just get smartassed.

I am pretty confident Marshall has done about everything he can think of to get through to this team. He HATES losing. You can see it in his face, you can tell it in his voice. He is not going to endure these types of losses if he can in any way do anything about them. If you have some magical suggestion for him on something he hasn't tried (and you apparently do because you point out he didn't put Burley in or play Preadom more), then please by all means impart this empirical knowledge to us. (Oh sorry, forgot I was to use small words and work my way up.) Don't you think "COACH" Marshall just may know a little bit more about the talents and non-talents of his team than what a fan thinks he knows by watching some games. Or are you one of these "insiders" that gets invited to the practice sessions?

And you are dead wrong if you think I am thin-skinned. I have a far tougher hide than you think -- I just don't like seeing you put a multitude (opps there I go again not using small words) of the blame on a first year Valley coach. A good many of these same players happened to be on last year's team and MT "couldn't get through to them either." I don't think Marshall has ever said coaching did not share a portion of the blame.

I just want the man to be given a fair -- and I do mean FAIR -- shot at coaching in this league with players OF HIS CHOICE. If the Shocks are no better this time next year, come back and we will revisit this topic, and I too may be in your corner. But not right now. There are numerous reasons this team can't put away a game they, by all rights, have won. Coaching may be one of the reasons, but it is not by any point of imagination the most prominent one.

I know you said to start with small words and work my way up, but I'm not used to talking on a two-year old's level.

[1972Shocker]

Still shaking my head from the events of last night.

With 7:09 remaining in the 1st half the Shocks trailed 20-13. At the 13:43 mark of the second half the Shocks lead 48-27 having laid a 35-7 run on the Sycamores over a span of 13:26. That's scoring at about a 104 points per 40 minutes of play clip.

The the wheels came of for the Shocks. Over the next 4:50 INS went on their 21-0 run to tie the score at 48. That's scoring at a rate of 174 points per 40 mintues of play.

During the Indiana State run I believe the Shockers had 8 possessions. 5 ended with turnovers by 5 different players PT, AE, MB, RC and PJ. We took and missed 3 shots - PJ's dunk and 3-Point attempts by Gal and Lance. There were 2 timeouts, a 30 second and a media and the Shocks made 4 substitutions. Not much question it was a total team meltdown. We were deer in the headlights.

In a way, I was a little surprised that the guys did bounce back to take the 9 point lead with a 1:22 to go. How we could let that lead evaporate is maybe even more egregious than the 21 point run that tied the game at 48. The free throw line pretty much told the tale. INS was 5-5 during he last 1:22 and the Shocks were 4-9. Also INS made 4 FG's to none for the Shocks in the last 1:22 (our only FG attempt was Matt's prayer at the end of the game). Of INS 4 FG's one was a put back off of a missed 3-pointer by Gabe Moore and the other 3 were layups. One more free-throw, one more stop, one less foul. The headlights were just too bright I guess.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

Wendell was in the game last night, and played 2 "I don't give a $HHHHIIIII" minutes, and it really pissed me off. Many Many fans want to see him allowed to finish his career here in Wichita, but he didn't seem to want to be on the floor. Coach noticed this and pulled him quickly.

Burley, at this point in his career, just isn't strong enough. He will probably be better each year. Watching coaches reaction when he came off said everything, and Brett knew it. He worked hard out there, just isn't there yet.

[1972Shocker]

Wendell was in the game last night, and played 2 "I don't give a $HHHHIIIII" minutes, and it really pissed me off. Many Many fans want to see him allowed to finish his career here in Wichita, but he didn't seem to want to be on the floor. Coach noticed this and pulled him quickly.

Burley, at this point in his career, just isn't strong enough. He will probably be better each year. Watching coaches reaction when he came off said everything, and Brett knew it. He worked hard out there, just isn't there yet.

Makes you wonder if Wendell has already made his decision about his future as a Shocker.

[WuShockFan]

Still shaking my head from the events of last night.

With 7:09 remaining in the 1st half the Shocks trailed 20-13. At the 13:43 mark of the second half the Shocks lead 48-27 having laid a 35-7 run on the Sycamores over a span of 13:26. That's scoring at about a 104 points per 40 minutes of play clip.

The the wheels came of for the Shocks. Over the next 4:50 INS went on their 21-0 run to tie the score at 48. That's scoring at a rate of 174 points per 40 mintues of play.

During the Indiana State run I believe the Shockers had 8 possessions. 5 ended with turnovers by 5 different players PT, AE, MB, RC and PJ. We took and missed 3 shots - PJ's dunk and 3-Point attempts by Gal and Lance. There were 2 timeouts, a 30 second and a media and the Shocks made 4 substitutions. Not much question it was a total team meltdown. We were deer in the headlights.

Thank you for this synopsis, 1972. Here is some additional data concerning how to lose a 21 point lead in under 5 minutes in Division I Men's College Basketball:

Wichita St. vs Indiana State
2/19/08 7:05 pm at Terre Haute, Ind. (Hulman Center)
2nd PERIOD Play-by-Play

Time Score HOME/VISITOR

13:43 27 - 48 GOOD! FT SHOT by Clemente, Ramon
13:09 29 - 48 GOOD! JUMPER by Martin, Isiah
12:58 31 - 48 GOOD! JUMPER by Moore, Gabe
12:16 34 - 48 GOOD! 3 PTR by Carter, Aaron
11:54 36 - 48 GOOD! JUMPER by Moore, Gabe
11:19 39 - 48 GOOD! 3 PTR by Moore, Gabe
10:03 42 - 48 GOOD! 3 PTR by Holmstrom, Cole
09:37 45 - 48 GOOD! 3 PTR by McCoy, Todd
08:53 48 - 48 GOOD! 3 PTR by McCoy, Todd

[1972Shocker]

No doubt about it, Indiana State took advantage of our miscues to regain the momentum and they had us reeling. Shows that no lead is really safe if you have 3-Point Shooters who get hot.

Still the Shocks were able to right the boat again and build a 9 point lead at the 1:22 mark, then we sprung a few more leaks and once overtime arrived we were pretty much a sinking ship.

[forevershockerfan]

Indiana State normally does not shoot almost 92% from the stripe as they did in that game. We actually had more attempts there than they did which is rare on the road. We were really "short-arming" flat duds from the free-throw line at the end when we could have sealed their fate just making 1 or 2 more. Man was I screaming at the tube when we kept fouling them, stopping the clock, and watching them gain ground with 1:22 left. Why do that? It defied all logic. The clock could have, should have, would have, been our best friend. Instead, we so chose to just kept fouling them instead at the end. Henceforth, we dug our own hole and then fell right in it. Wow!!!!!!!

[Snapshot9]

Yeah, it seems like in games, at the end, we foul a 50% FT shooter, and he ends up making both of them all the time.

I wonder, has Mrs. Marshall worked with our players this year on shooting FT, because I haven't really noticed any changes throughout the year on FT form.
I always thought Kyle Wilson had good FT shooting form, and that his stroke
was fluid at the line, using his legs along with his arms.

[SpanglerFan316]

When the team loses (and loses and loses and ...), people here get really thin-skinned. People complain about the players not being tough; these same fans then fail to demonstrate toughness by becoming extremely defensive. :lol:

Shox21: "This is so totally unfair." TOTALLY!!!
"I can't even begin to tell you at what degree of unfairness I think your remarks land." Just try. Start with small words and work your way up.


I agree that Marshall does not have much to work with this year and I expect him to have great teams in a few years. I'm a fan of Gregg Marshall but this doesn't mean that he is immune from criticism. Everyone on SN needs to take a big Chill Pill.

You talk about others getting defensive -- you have that one covered -- you just get smartassed.

I am pretty confident Marshall has done about everything he can think of to get through to this team. He HATES losing. You can see it in his face, you can tell it in his voice. He is not going to endure these types of losses if he can in any way do anything about them. If you have some magical suggestion for him on something he hasn't tried (and you apparently do because you point out he didn't put Burley in or play Preadom more), then please by all means impart this empirical knowledge to us. (Oh sorry, forgot I was to use small words and work my way up.) Don't you think "COACH" Marshall just may know a little bit more about the talents and non-talents of his team than what a fan thinks he knows by watching some games. Or are you one of these "insiders" that gets invited to the practice sessions?

And you are dead wrong if you think I am thin-skinned. I have a far tougher hide than you think -- I just don't like seeing you put a multitude (opps there I go again not using small words) of the blame on a first year Valley coach. A good many of these same players happened to be on last year's team and MT "couldn't get through to them either." I don't think Marshall has ever said coaching did not share a portion of the blame.

I just want the man to be given a fair -- and I do mean FAIR -- shot at coaching in this league with players OF HIS CHOICE. If the Shocks are no better this time next year, come back and we will revisit this topic, and I too may be in your corner. But not right now. There are numerous reasons this team can't put away a game they, by all rights, have won. Coaching may be one of the reasons, but it is not by any point of imagination the most prominent one.

I know you said to start with small words and work my way up, but I'm not used to talking on a two-year old's level.

Shox21: Except in a few circumstances, my posts are tongue-in-cheek. I hoped my TOTALLY!!! would bring something like Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure to mind and you would get the joke. Two of the circumstances where my posts are serious are (i) when people are being unfair to a player (or coach) as many seem to be to Gal this year and (ii) when coaches (e.g. Jane) need to go.

I don't really disagree with much of what you say. I want Marshall to have a fair shot with his own players. I want him to have success. However, he will not get every player he wants and I also want him to be able to use the talent he has, rather than the talent he wants, and to be as successful as possible every year. I think the MVC is much tougher than Marshall is used to and I do think he has some coaching weaknesses; I also think he is a smart guy and he will learn.

[shocktown]

WuShock16 Bumped this one because the in game thread got locked for some reason, maybe to many 'yo momma' insults! Page 391 on my dial is some good reading.

[JVShocker]

I get the feeling that Marshall expects the players to be a little tougher. We're talking about men here, they're not little boys. Some of them have been playing this game for a long, long time, and to simply not make a play that counts is worth getting a little heated over, especially when it happens repeatedly.

Some kids will respond favorably to it, some won't. I'm not sure exactly how many of these guys respond well to it. If you've been babied your whole life, led to believe how great you are and not had to work harder than most for it, I half expect a player to fold under the pressure. I don't think Marshall will want that kind of player next season.

I cannot expect Marshall to change who he is, he's going down fighting, even if the guys aren't.


:goshocks:

Wow. Look at me go!