Tell me about the dark days

[shockmonster]

One might add that Fogler left WSU in better shape than Turgeon did.

To be fair, he also came into a much better situation than Turgeon.

Steve Grayer, Sasha Radunovich, and the twins (etc.) all were very talented.

[WuDrWu]

No question Eddie had better players at the start. Mark was left with Michael Phillips, OJ Robinson, Troy Mack, Willie Davis, Terrell Benton and Juston White.

I left my 8th grade team in better shape than Randy left Mark.

Mark left Gregg, Matt Braeuer, PJ, Gal, Wendell Preadom and Phil Thomasson.

I would argue Mark left the program in better shape, in EVERY aspect. Both had to rebuild, Mark had to rebuild more. Mark reached new heights, but it took him longer.

Mark was a better recruiter (a little) and Eddie was a better bench coach (more than a little). Both were looking for their next job, Eddie more so. Mark was a much better fit, and even a better fit than he knew.

Both were good people, but Mark was a better person no doubt. Neither hated that school to the north enough for me.

[ShockingButTrue]

To be fair, he also came into a much better situation than Turgeon.

Steve Grayer, Sasha Radunovich, and the twins (etc.) all were very talented.

... and left when they left.

He was a fairly decent "4 corners philosophy" type of coach. That's probably why he favored Guffrovich over the kid from the Chicago area, another Gene recruit, J. Griffin. I thought that was a big mistake on his part. Maybe personal.

My problem with him was that nobody's body language ever screamed "at this level..." more than his. Well, other than b. packer, of course.

[Royalno5]

Fogler was not the reason for the downfall. It was a perfect storm of a bad athletic department, bad coaching and recruiting, bad university management, and the NCAA poking around. I don't know of too many programs that could withstand all of this without going backward. Throw in a good dose of local negative media coverage, and there you go.

[WuShock16]

How differently would be look at Gregg's first year if Matt wasn't hurt during the entire month of January? Granted, even with Matt, that team's margin of error was small, but he was the one player that team could not afford to lose. If Matt was healthy all year, I strongly believe that team would have won at least four of the many close games that were lost that year. It still would have been a disappointing season, but going into St. Louis with a 15-15 record sounds a lot better than 11-19.

It is also important to remember that it was not Mark's fault that Guy Alang Ntang died...not saying that anyone here is suggesting that. Maybe Guy wouldn't have made a difference, but we will never know that.

I had forgotten that there were three straight overtime losses in that season in February. One of them was at Northern Iowa when we had a miracle comeback to force overtime and then another miracle in overtime to take the lead. I think Northern Iowa hit a shot at the end and then Matt rimmed one out at the buzzer that would have won it. The OT loss to Southern Illinois was winnable if PJ wouldn't have missed a late FT that could have won the game instead of sending it to OT.

Mark certainly takes some blame for Gregg's first year, but there were many, many unlucky factors that led to that forgettable season.

[WSUwatcher]

I do agree with Doc that when MT left to escape "this level," the program was in better shape in all respects than when he arrived. The AD and president had something to do with that as well. But it was still quite a climb for Marshall to undertake.

[molly jabali]

This has been a very interesting discussion, and I have have enjoyed(but not totally agreed) with all of it....

Coaching hires and move ons are like snowflakes in that no two are exact....one thing I did think is that Randy had nothing to do with 'leaving' Mark anything...he didn't want to go anywhere...

[WuDrWu]

This has been a very interesting discussion, and I have have enjoyed(but not totally agreed) with all of it....

Coaching hires and move ons are like snowflakes in that no two are exact....one thing I did think is that Randy had nothing to do with 'leaving' Mark anything...he didn't want to go anywhere...

Randy didn't have anything to leave either way.

[WuDrWu]

I remember Coach Fogler on a call in show, where the obligatory call in question was raised...... "Coach are you going to stay at WSU?"


I don't remember exactly how he worded it, but after he addressed that he went on to comment "What I do think is unfair is that coaches can't at least look and see what's out there, even if it's just to determine their fair market value, without being excoriated."

I am sure he didn't use the word excoriated, so I should have not used quotes, but you get the idea. And it was a fair point then, and a fair point now.

[Dan]

One big thing I gotta give Randy credit for is that he made a good effort to recruit the local kids. Fogler and Cohen missed out on some local talent and there was a lot of moaning going on at the time about keeping the best talent in Wichita as a means for keeping the fan interest in the program. Terry Hankton was a nice PG from Derby, Maurice Evans was a huge recruit and Darren Williams was another nice recruit among many others.

[ShockingButTrue]

One big thing I gotta give Randy credit for is that he made a good effort to recruit the local kids. Fogler and Cohen missed out on some local talent and there was a lot of moaning going on at the time about keeping the best talent in Wichita as a means for keeping the fan interest in the program. Terry Hankton was a nice PG from Derby, Maurice Evans was a huge recruit and Darren Williams was another nice recruit among many others.

Unfortunately, that whole era/regime was such a train wreck even the players couldn't look away.

Anyone remember J. Arnold sitting in the 6th row munching on a hot-dog and a coke, amused (relieved) at the carnage before him? Terrible loss for both parties.

[BOBB]

The Arnold deal was pretty funny and sad at the same time. The Perez benching was worse. I'm paraphrasing The Wire, but "Randy didn't fail to recognize talent, he pushed it away with great gusto."

[WuDrWu]

The Arnold deal was pretty funny and sad at the same time. The Perez benching was worse. I'm paraphrasing The Wire, but "Randy didn't fail to recognize talent, he pushed it away with great gusto."

I have to plead ignorance and/or forgetfulness, what was with the "Perez benching" you refer to?

[BOBB]

My recollection, foggy as those days were, was that Perez may have questioned the coach and/or was set up as an example that no player was above the law. I believe this was when Lutz turned on Randy. It was a steady drumbeat thereafter.

[another shocker]

My recollection, foggy as those days were, was that Perez may have questioned the coach and/or was set up as an example that no player was above the law. I believe this was when Lutz turned on Randy. It was a steady drumbeat thereafter.

lutz never liked randy from the start, though. he was a steve eck guy.