Shockers vs Oklahoma Baptist game thread

[Anthroshock]

Great rebounder are great, not because they jump high, but instead becbout ause they get great position (and are tall), or they get great position and have great/fierce energy (Marshall would call them ball getters). Colby did a nice job against a team of lesser inside players than he'll play later in our schedule. Early did ok, and Carter, Lufile, Green, and Morris did not show.

That was exactly what KC said he needed to learn and refine when he was asked about rebounding in the postgame news conference. Its posted on GoShockers.

[another shocker]

really, i wouldn't worry too much about the shockers on the boards. they get outrebounded, off the top of my head, maybe once every six/eight games.. at the most.. they will be ok there, sooner or later (most probably sooner). rebounding is the name of the big time game.. i know it, you know it and marshall knows it too.. that's our secret. and it will happen big again sure as shite.

edit: 'still can't believe the way gonzaga ripped the boards from us. boggled my mind. so, big threes can overcome that, here and again. there you go

[ShockerFever]

I'm sorry but the NBA ignorance on this board is getting on my nerves. Anyone who says there is no defense in the NBA game obviously doesn't watch it. If you don't want to watch basketball played at its highest level that's your choice but comments like this make you look dumb.

You're right. I don't watch it. It sucks. It bores me. I'll maybe watch a game or two in late May or June. That's about it.

I've watched enough of it to know that I don't like it. Defense is secondary.

I do not want college basketball turned into that crap.

[ShockerFever]

For the first time in my life, watching NBA last year was more enjoyable than College Basketball.

So the NBA was more enjoyable than watching WSU go to the Final Four?

Interesting.

[proshox]

The “they don’t play defense” in the NBA is a very stale argument.
People fail to realize how over-playing or double teaming wouldn't work due to the level of offensive talent that those guys have.
For comparison sake, pretend that every college point guard could handle the ball against pressure the way Malcolm could. Would anyone have heard of VCU’s HAVOC Defense? I think not, because the gimmick doesn’t work against the best point guards.
Furthermore, go watch one NBA game in person (if you can, do it the day after watching a WSU game in person) - the contrast couldn't be more startling from an ability, skill, and athleticism standpoint. TV doesn’t due the NBA justice.
Unfortunately, I am not a fan of any particular team and it is hard to focus on games when you don't have an emotional attachment.

[ShockerFever]

The “they don’t play defense” in the NBA is a very stale argument.
People fail to realize how over-playing or double teaming wouldn't work due to the level of offensive talent that those guys have.
For comparison sake, pretend that every college point guard could handle the ball against pressure the way Malcolm could. Would anyone have heard of VCU’s HAVOC Defense? I think not, because the gimmick doesn’t work against the best point guards.
Furthermore, go watch one NBA game in person (if you can, do it the day after watching a WSU game in person) - the contrast couldn't be more startling from an ability, skill, and athleticism standpoint. TV doesn’t due the NBA justice.
Unfortunately, I am not a fan of any particular team and it is hard to focus on games when you don't have an emotional attachment.

I've watched NBA games in person. Defense is played, but not at a premium. The way games are called completely favors the offensive players. Offense and defense should be treated equally. In these new rules being emphasized, that is not the case. Offense is given more benefit than defense. Pointless. Stupid. Not basketball.

[shock]

So the NBA was more enjoyable than watching WSU go to the Final Four?

Interesting.

[The Mad Hatter]

Setting aside NBA comparisons for a moment, my main issue with the officiating changes are the inconsistencies they create in the game.

In the past, defenders were given some leeway to use the arms to impede the offensive player and offensive players were given some leeway to extend the arm into the defender to create space (within limits in both cases). I have no problem with the idea that this is bad basketball and that the game should be played with foot movement and body positioning instead of with shoving. In that sense, I have no theoretical poblem with the new officiating emphasis in regard to defensive players, except that it doesn't appear to being applied to offensive players as well. If we are going to go super strict on defenders with the hand checks, it needs to be coupled with increased restriction on offensive players creating space with their arms, and that doesn't appear to be the case from what I've seen (we shall see).

This is part of the problem of making a rule change with the intent of increasing scoring. To accomplish an arbitrary end (more points) you are creating a basic inconsistency about whether arm contact within games is acceptable basketball.

Just addressing the defensive side of the equation may ramp up scoring, but largely because offensive players have little reason not to drive the ball to the basket at every opportunity knowing that they will have a high chance of getting to the free throw line and a low chance of getting called for an offensive foul.

If, however, you made the change to actually diminish shoving in basketball, not just to pump up the score, you might be able to make hand checks and push offs a point of emphasis without seeing a huge explosion of foul calls. Defenders would have to use their feet, but they would stand a chance at successfully doing so if offensive player isn't allowed to throw their arm or shoulder into them to create space and/or a foul call. Offensive players would have more room to drive without being bumped, but would have to weight that against not being allowed to create space to get their shot off. The risk/reward for driving the basketball wouldn't be so heavily skewed towards the offensive player as it appears to be now.

One of my biggest areas of frustration in watching basketball has always been offensive players drawing fouls by being the ones to initiate contact with a defender who has stayed with them step for step and that was before the change of emphasis. I cringe to think what it could look like now.

[I_Vector_Wu]

Yes, Lew Alcindor!!!!!

Yeah but I think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was a better all around player than Lew Alcindor ................... waiting to smoke out the over versus under 50 crowd

[The Cat]

I am already scared of what is going to happen when John "Hollywood" Higgins comes to town with this new emphasis on fouls. That is all he needed, more reason to blow the whistle and be the center of attention and pain in our backside.

[wsushox1]

So the NBA was more enjoyable than watching WSU go to the Final Four?

Interesting.

Putting words into my mouth.

Notice how I said College Basketball, surely you don't think I just watch WSU games?

College Basketball style of play was ugly last year and it will likely be ugly this year. However, if it gets to a cleaner brand of basketball being played then I am all for it.

[shockmonster]

Setting aside NBA comparisons for a moment, my main issue with the officiating changes are the inconsistencies they create in the game.

In the past, defenders were given some leeway to use the arms to impede the offensive player and offensive players were given some leeway to extend the arm into the defender to create space (within limits in both cases). I have no problem with the idea that this is bad basketball and that the game should be played with foot movement and body positioning instead of with shoving. In that sense, I have no theoretical poblem with the new officiating emphasis in regard to defensive players, except that it doesn't appear to being applied to offensive players as well. If we are going to go super strict on defenders with the hand checks, it needs to be coupled with increased restriction on offensive players creating space with their arms, and that doesn't appear to be the case from what I've seen (we shall see).

This is part of the problem of making a rule change with the intent of increasing scoring. To accomplish an arbitrary end (more points) you are creating a basic inconsistency about whether arm contact within games is acceptable basketball.

Just addressing the defensive side of the equation may ramp up scoring, but largely because offensive players have little reason not to drive the ball to the basket at every opportunity knowing that they will have a high chance of getting to the free throw line and a low chance of getting called for an offensive foul.

If, however, you made the change to actually diminish shoving in basketball, not just to pump up the score, you might be able to make hand checks and push offs a point of emphasis without seeing a huge explosion of foul calls. Defenders would have to use their feet, but they would stand a chance at successfully doing so if offensive player isn't allowed to throw their arm or shoulder into them to create space and/or a foul call. Offensive players would have more room to drive without being bumped, but would have to weight that against not being allowed to create space to get their shot off. The risk/reward for driving the basketball wouldn't be so heavily skewed towards the offensive player as it appears to be now.

One of my biggest areas of frustration in watching basketball has always been offensive players drawing fouls by being the ones to initiate contact with a defender who has stayed with them step for step and that was before the change of emphasis. I cringe to think what it could look like now.

I think that the pushing with the hands is easy to call. A defender simply can't chuck with the hands. Players will have to show their hands when contact occurs. The defensive players should be able to adjust to this change. I remember when Matt Brauer was mugged down the court by a bigger MSU point guard who was 6'3 or 6'4 200 lb. player pushing on a 5'10 145 lb player. He pushed him and rode him all the way down the court and took over the game by bullying him. The Shockers lost that game when they were better.

On the other hand, the new charge is a different animal. Charges will be non existent because it is too difficult to see when the offensive player left the ground and when the defensive player established position. This is a bad rule and will promote offensive players just wildly and blindly charging to the basket in order to get fouled.

[Kung Wu]

One of my biggest areas of frustration in watching basketball has always been offensive players drawing fouls by being the ones to initiate contact with a defender who has stayed with them step for step and that was before the change of emphasis. I cringe to think what it could look like now.

So Ron Baker was standing there in the paint all alone with both feet set and clearly established a legal guarding position. The other team's point guard is now coming down the court in a one-on-one situation. Ron puts both hands up in the air to show he is not going to hand check. He starts back peddling. Ron back peddles like three steps and stops before he enters the arc, planting both feet, and hands still in the air offering surrender to the reffing gods. The point guard bulldozes into Ron and Ron gets called for the foul.

What could/should Ron have done differently other than just get out of the way and let the point guard score uncontested?

Maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe some with a closer view saw it differently than my rose colored eyesight allowed me to see it?

[forevershockerfan]

So Ron Baker was standing there in the paint all alone with both feet set and clearly established a legal guarding position. The other team's point guard is now coming down the court in a one-on-one situation. Ron puts both hands up in the air to show he is not going to hand check. He starts back peddling. Ron back peddles like three steps and stops before he enters the arc, planting both feet, and hands still in the air offering surrender to the reffing gods. The point guard bulldozes into Ron and Ron gets called for the foul.

What could/should Ron have done differently other than just get out of the way and let the point guard score uncontested?

Maybe I didn't see what I thought I saw. Maybe some with a closer view saw it differently than my rose colored eyesight allowed me to see it?

That play reminded me of Jake White standing more still than a statue, not even batting an eye or twitching an eyebrow, and on 50 occassions getting mowed down like a weed, only to get called for the blocking foul.

[MadaboutWu]

I was thinking we should call the new block/charge rules "The Jake White principle."