Success with JUCOs

[C0|dB|00ded]

"You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs."

A complete "recruiting miss" two years ago, yet next year we will have the finest group of athletes on a WSU roster since Reagan was president. It's very hard to criticize anybody that can produce this type of omelette. Freshman sometimes (many times) don't work out. The jump from HS to D1 is huge. We aren't criticizing HCGM's ability to identify talent are we? Of course not! So whatever "recruiting miss" occurred, it didn't happen because of incompetence or laziness. With HCGM, you must look at the results (omelette), not the eggs. This man fills stables with stallions and he does it however he has to do it.

Have you ever considered that some of the "recruiting miss" three years ago was due to new signings that were simply better than what he had originally signed? I know some members are against this philosophy, but if HCGM doesn't think you are turning into the player he thought you were, and he finds someone better on the trail, your floor time is replaced. End of story.

[moshock]

A Juco transfer could also redshirt. Last season there were several freshmen playing in front of one of the Juco kids.

A "complete failure" of a class with 2 of the 3 being head cases is pretty harsh. I'm pretty sure that 3G and the assistants ask the HS Coach all of the right questions. They also spend time with the recruit and his family. They still can't absolutely know that the recruit may be a head case.

If you are going to call 3G a "fail" on that class - you have to say that the others have been stellar. I guess I'm just having a problem with the word "fail" after enduring Shocker basketball in the 90's.

[pogo]

Endure is a good word for what went on in the 90's

[C0|dB|00ded]

Endure is a good word for what went on in the 90's

Or face-palming through the 90's. Perhaps head-bagging?

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T


...:cool:

[another shocker]

I'm loving every minute of it. The Shocker program is pretty locked in now, finally. I expect them to compete near the top of the Valley every year.

[WstateU]

Good debate! :eagerness:


Sometimes You Just Gotta Air Out Your Junk!

[moshock]

BTW, will Earl Watson be considered a Juco or a HS guy since he originally signed with us out of HS ?

[vancedave56]

Kentucky pretty much fails at signing four year guys :)

[shockmonster]

Criticism can be good in the right circumstances but a few people that are criticizing HCGM (just after he won a MVC Championship and several seasons of competing for MVC Championships-consistently a Top 50 Program) would have probably criticized Jesus for healing someone on the Sabbath. Maybe they think that they know more than they really do.

[The Mad Hatter]

The problem with debating this issue is one of underlying assumptions. There are those who are convinced that the only way to build a program is through getting strong freshman classes and having 4-year players as the core of the team. Others believe in signing the most talented players that you can attract, regardless of whether they are incoming freshmen, D1 transfers, of JUCO transfers. Marshall appears to be in the second camp, not the first.

Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate to argue for the superiority of building through 4-year players, but I find it illegitimate to criticize Marshall for failing to do something that I don't believe he ever set out to do (i.e. build primarily through incoming freshmen and only use JUCOs as a fix for failing to do so). Calling Marshall a failure in this regard is like calling Grover Nordquist a failure for not successfully getting new taxes raised. You can argue about whether Nordquist's rejection of any new taxes is good policy or not, but you can't call him a failure for not doing something he never set out to do.

[wufan]

Also signed in the "fail" class were Orukpe, Smith, and Ragland.

[wu_shizzle]

Kind of hard to sign a good freshman class behind Toure', Garrett and Kyles. And if I remember correctly, HCGM wanted a JuCo (Jermaine Mallett?) instead of Tyler Richardson but trusted Earl Grant that TR was the better signing. Maybe that experience was a lesson...

[WSUwatcher]

Also, there's the possibility that we get/have the reputation of signing a bunch of JUCOs all the time and that scares quality HS kids off as they're constantly going to be recruited over (experience) and won't get the court time they need to really develop and showcase their talents. Is a solid/good/great HS kid going to want to go somewhere he's going to be able to play and contribute or one where he has to sit on the bench the next couple of years because there's always a bunch of JUCO guys getting placed ahead of them due to experience at a higher level? Some kids don't care, but many do.

Well, Sub, in the last two years, among the guys not scared off by WSU's juco recruiting have been a Parade All-American (Jake White), a PG who is both acclaimed and thought to be, if anything, underrated -- not a bad combination (Fred VV), and the newcomer that back around Memorial Day you were calling the one who intrigued you the most out of this year's group (Derail Green; check the Recruiting thread on him for your comments). And really, you could add Teddy Hawkins to that list, too -- another player who had some recruiting watchers marveling that WSU was able to land him; and of course Tekele Cotton last year as well.

If those are the guys who AREN'T getting scared off, (a) I'd be curious to see the ones who are, and (b) I'll stick with the ones the Shocks ARE able to keep in the corral.

[SubGod22]

Well, Sub, in the last two years, among the guys not scared off by WSU's juco recruiting have been a Parade All-American (Jake White), a PG who is both acclaimed and thought to be, if anything, underrated -- not a bad combination (Fred VV), and the newcomer that back around Memorial Day you were calling the one who intrigued you the most out of this year's group (Derail Green; check the Recruiting thread on him for your comments). And really, you could add Teddy Hawkins to that list, too -- another player who had some recruiting watchers marveling that WSU was able to land him; and of course Tekele Cotton last year as well.

If those are the guys who AREN'T getting scared off, (a) I'd be curious to see the ones who are, and (b) I'll stick with the ones the Shocks ARE able to keep in the corral.

Way to NOT read what I've said here. I've also commented that hopefully we won't be signing so many JUCOs in one class because of the last two classes. But you could also wonder who we've missed on in the past because they see us bringing in 3 or so JUCOs a year.

[SubGod22]

The problem with debating this issue is one of underlying assumptions. There are those who are convinced that the only way to build a program is through getting strong freshman classes and having 4-year players as the core of the team. Others believe in signing the most talented players that you can attract, regardless of whether they are incoming freshmen, D1 transfers, of JUCO transfers. Marshall appears to be in the second camp, not the first.

Therefore, it is perfectly legitimate to argue for the superiority of building through 4-year players, but I find it illegitimate to criticize Marshall for failing to do something that I don't believe he ever set out to do (i.e. build primarily through incoming freshmen and only use JUCOs as a fix for failing to do so). Calling Marshall a failure in this regard is like calling Grover Nordquist a failure for not successfully getting new taxes raised. You can argue about whether Nordquist's rejection of any new taxes is good policy or not, but you can't call him a failure for not doing something he never set out to do.

Once again, NOBODY HAS CALLED 3G A FAILURE. Reading comprehension sucks on this site