Success with JUCOs

[SubGod22]

Failure ??? Really ???

ZERO 4 year players in the JR class. That's failure to recruit well three years ago. So yes, failure.

3G, keep doing what you are doing. I can see that you are blending HS and JUCO players to build a winner year in and year out.

NOBODY is saying don't sign the best JUCOs you can when you need to. Unfortunately, we've needed to almost every year because of an inability to bring in FR. Hopefully that is changing with the past couple of recruiting classes and we'll see less JUCOs signed in the future. Having to bring in 3 or 4 in one recruiting class is not good for the program as a whole. Stop gap measures.

[SubGod22]

I know we'd all like HCGM to get the best freshmen possible, but without the JUCO players, we wouldn't have won the NIT and HCGM would still be looking for his first NCAA bid as a WSU head coach.

Sure that's correct. Because he and his staff was unable to bring in quality FR. If we'd have landed better FR, we could still achieve those same goals.

I'd rather have 3 or 4 productive years of a FR recruit than a year to year and a half of a JUCO player. It's better for the program as a whole. Unfortunately, we have struggled to land enough quality FR. That appears to be changing with Cotton, White, FVV, Green and perhaps Hawkins next year. Hopefully that trend continues and we don't need 3 JUCO guys in one recruiting class in a couple of years.

[SubGod22]

I think HCGM has done a outstanding job of getting the right mix. I think he would prefer a Juco AA over a 2 star to low star 3 caliber freshman. But im sure he would take FVV caliber players over any jucos. I think his mindset why settle for a lower caliber freshman, when i can get a very talented Juco AA kid.

Do you see many 2 and low 3's on the list? But we have to remember that most JUCOs, and that includes the AA type, would only be rated as a 3 star. So taking 2 years from that 3 star trumps 4/5 years of service from another? Depends on the situation, but I'd be more than willing to take more chances with developing a talent and less on renting it.

[BOBB]

@SubGod22: is simpatico with me on this issue.

[_kai_]

If that is the failure of Marshall's recruiting, that we don't have any 4 year players in our junior class, but have Nick Wiggins, Cle Early, Chadrack Lufile, Mal Armstead & Joe Mitchell as the padding for that "failure." Then dear God I wish my failures at work were as grand as Marshall's.

[ShockTalk]

We complained about MT saying we were "this level" and his feeling he couldn't attract that higher level freshman to WSU. He resorted to getting key transfers (Wilson, Bradley, Thomasson), which I feel is a very tough way to get a continuous stream of talent, and a few Jucos. The problem was, after his initial class of freshman were gone, his overall talent pool dropped.

HCGM also had a nice group of early freshmen which were successful and now gone. Difference is, we may still have one of the most talented teams we've had in years still in place. Yes, HCGM has had some disappointments with a number of his freshmen, although, I believe some were brought here as we needed "numbers" and they were the best available. Others were more highly rated, but projects.

I think we can all agree that the players HCGM is pursuing are more highly rated than we had been used to seeing. If he can't get that higher quality freshman to fill every spot, he looks to the Jucos who have already "weeded out" those 3 stars and is picking up players from the cream of the crop. By keeping that talent pool strong, he will continue to have strong performance. We landed FVV and by keeping WSU name out there as a strong contender, year in and year out, more FVVs will follow. Enjoy the ride.

:wsu_posters: :wsu_posters:

[moshock]

Sub, do you think we should have "rode it out" with Manigault, Tyler, and Jerome ? Are we better off with Wiggins, Cle, and Lufile ?

I would definitley like to see us recruit "can't miss" freshmen and I think that will be happening sooner rather than later. However, we are now attracting "can't miss" Juco players.


The only Juco "miss" our staff has had was Anacreon and we picked him up very late in the game. It seems that it may be easier to evaluate the Juco guys than the HS players.

We are experiencing the finest years this program has seen since the 80's. It's hard for me to call anything a failure.

[1979Shocker]

It's not HCGM's fault that we can't get a bunch of talented freshmen each recruiting class, but instead have to rely on the talented JUCO's. It takes a while to build up a winning tradition where those talented freshmen will want to come here.

[SubGod22]

Sub, do you think we should have "rode it out" with Manigault, Tyler, and Jerome ? Are we better off with Wiggins, Cle, and Lufile ?

Hard to say until we see them in action. But the class of Manigault, Tyler and Hamilton turned out to be a failure. Tyler never should have been recruited. The other two ended up having issues between their ears. Very talented and worth a risk in my book. Perhaps that's something the staff should have had a better feel for during the recruiting process? We're probably better off with the JRs we have, but the only reason we have them is because of the failure in recruiting a couple of years ago.

I would definitley like to see us recruit "can't miss" freshmen and I think that will be happening sooner rather than later. However, we are now attracting "can't miss" Juco players.

I'm not sure I'd lable any JUCO as can't miss. And very few HS kids that way. There's always risk involved. Coaches need to do a better job of evaluating not only talent, but what they can grasp and how they'll handle change. I don't expect them to be perfect, but missing on an entire class hurts.

The only Juco "miss" our staff has had was Anacreon and we picked him up very late in the game. It seems that it may be easier to evaluate the Juco guys than the HS players.

It may also have to do with there being less competition for the JUCO guys. Well established programs don't have to rely on them. And I'm not only talking about the KUs and Dukes of the world. They'll fill in when there's a need, but they're not out there heavily recruiting most of these guys. And often times, there's a reason these guys are in JUCOs. Grades play a big part, but sometimes it's also because they didn't have the talent level they thought they did or in some cases are simply late bloomers. But lets not pretend that a JUCO AA is the same as a 5 star prospect. Most aren't even 4s.

We are experiencing the finest years this program has seen since the 80's. It's hard for me to call anything a failure.

I've never said the program has failed. Only that there have been failures in the program and signing 3 or 4 JUCOs shows that. Some people are so scared of the word fail that they can't comprehend that it's not the end of the world or means that the overall situation is dire.

[shock]

Look at other MVC schools. Sure, they recruit above their station, but they also lose out on those and end up getting four year so-so players that make the team flash once or twice a decade. Marshall is using the JUCO player to recruit above his station, and isn't saddled with mediocre players for four years. Look at UNI. They are what we would look like if Marshall kept all his four year types.
To elevate WSU's station, Marshall is constantly getting better players through the JUCO ranks because of the higher turnover. He brings them in, they star for a year and a half, they graduate, and he has better horses ready to pull the wagon. Instead of waiting and gaining ground on a four year cycle, he is doing it on a two year cycle.
When he has elevated WSU to the ranks where he is able to pull in 4 and 5 star frosh then he will. But to get there, he is using JUCO players. People are looking at this in the wrong light. Marshall is building a base with four year players. Stutz Murry Kyles, joined with Rags Smith Hall. Durley Ellis Hatch, Blair Rags Smith. White DWill, Hall Early Wiggins Lufile Armstead. White Baker VV Cotton, Early Wiggins Lufile.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Okay first off, the Valley doesn't attract "can't miss" freshman. A program like Wichita State can from time to time, but by and large, freshman have to be developed in the Valley and who really knows how they will develop. The only true "can't miss" freshman are 5-star recruits with a smattering of 4-star. I will give you my guarantee that Cle would be a 4-star recruit and Wigs would be close to that.

There are thousands upon thousands of basketball players entering the Juco ranks every year. Most of the good players are doing so because of grades. It's extremely easy in today's public school system to limp your way through, especially if you hang with a bad group. Those great basketball players fall through the cracks and go the Juco route.

We are signing the best of the best Juco players. The majority of these types of players have been impact players for us; Clevin, Hall, Ragland, Jamar, Ben Smith, etc. These players come in way more prepared mentally and physically to play D1 than true freshman. So if you remove a typical 2/3-star freshman's first year (which is usually low performance), you are left with 3 productive years. That is only one more year than a top-level Juco who should produce immediately. And, the big advantage with a Juco is you see how their body as well as their game has developed against better than HS competition, before you sign them. You also see how they do away from home and whether or not they stayed out of trouble.

HCGM is doing what all successful business people do, he has identified his goals (probably a national championship) and then laid out a plan to achieve it. The first step is to sign increasingly better players (wherever you can find them), he is doing that. Then he has to win more and more every year to develop a national reputation, he is doing that. Then and only then, will he be in a position to get lucky and land a "lunker". Once that happens it's "Katy bar the door."

For anybody to criticize ANYTHING HCGM is doing on the recruiting front, their needs to be a serious lack of perspective and a touch of insanity.


T


...:cool:

[Yellow Snow]

We are having an inordinate amount of success with Juco players.

Unfortunately it is coming at the expense of our underclassmen.

[SubGod22]

Look at other MVC schools. Sure, they recruit above their station, but they also lose out on those and end up getting four year so-so players that make the team flash once or twice a decade. Marshall is using the JUCO player to recruit above his station, and isn't saddled with mediocre players for four years. Look at UNI. They are what we would look like if Marshall kept all his four year types.
To elevate WSU's station, Marshall is constantly getting better players through the JUCO ranks because of the higher turnover. He brings them in, they star for a year and a half, they graduate, and he has better horses ready to pull the wagon. Instead of waiting and gaining ground on a four year cycle, he is doing it on a two year cycle.
When he has elevated WSU to the ranks where he is able to pull in 4 and 5 star frosh then he will. But to get there, he is using JUCO players. People are looking at this in the wrong light. Marshall is building a base with four year players. Stutz Murry Kyles, joined with Rags Smith Hall. Durley Ellis Hatch, Blair Rags Smith. White DWill, Hall Early Wiggins Lufile Armstead. White Baker VV Cotton, Early Wiggins Lufile.

Did you really just compare us to UNI?

[SubGod22]

Okay first off, the Valley doesn't attract "can't miss" freshman. A program like Wichita State can from time to time, but by and large, freshman have to be developed in the Valley and who really knows how they will develop. The only true "can't miss" freshman are 5-star recruits with a smattering of 4-star. I will give you my guarantee that Cle would be a 4-star recruit and Wigs would be close to that.

I'll give you that. I'm not sure if Cle would be a 4 or not, but I'll say he could at least be close if not in based upon what we have. Not sure Nick would be a 4. Solid 3, maybe a little better.

There are thousands upon thousands of basketball players entering the Juco ranks every year. Most of the good players are doing so because of grades. It's extremely easy in today's public school system to limp your way through, especially if you hang with a bad group. Those great basketball players fall through the cracks and go the Juco route.

Fair enough, but the best of the best usually get placed in prep schools so they don't lose any elegibility.

We are signing the best of the best Juco players. The majority of these types of players have been impact players for us; Clevin, Hall, Ragland, Jamar, Ben Smith, etc. These players come in way more prepared mentally and physically to play D1 than true freshman. So if you remove a typical 2/3-star freshman's first year (which is usually low performance), you are left with 3 productive years. That is only one more year than a top-level Juco who should produce immediately. And, the big advantage with a Juco is you see how their body as well as their game has developed against better than HS competition, before you sign them. You also see how they do away from home and whether or not they stayed out of trouble.

I'm not sure we've had any JUCO come in and be a factor right away. The good ones give us a year and a half. Some only one year. The beauty with FR is the ability to RS if they're not physically ready. Then you can get 3 or 4 good years out of them depending.

HCGM is doing what all successful business people do, he has identified his goals (probably a national championship) and then laid out a plan to achieve it. The first step is to sign increasingly better players (wherever you can find them), he is doing that. Then he has to win more and more every year to develop a national reputation, he is doing that. Then and only then, will he be in a position to get lucky and land a "lunker". Once that happens it's "Katy bar the door."

Agreed.

For anybody to criticize ANYTHING HCGM is doing on the recruiting front, their needs to be a serious lack of perspective and a touch of insanity.

What's wrong with criticizing a complete miss in a recruiting class? Nobody is perfect and once again, the only reason we have so many in this years class is because NONE of the HS kids worked out. We have to sign the JUCOs to stay competitive due to recruiting misses. I've said all along that's what you use JUCOs for. But being forced to sign this many shows how poor the recruiting went a couple of years ago. Unless you're saying he intentionally signed guys he knew wouldn't pan out so he'd have 'ships available for some JUCO guys in a couple of years.... He missed and missed badly with what is now the JR class a few years back. Is it really that hard to grasp?

[SubGod22]

Also, there's the possibility that we get/have the reputation of signing a bunch of JUCOs all the time and that scares quality HS kids off as they're constantly going to be recruited over (experience) and won't get the court time they need to really develop and showcase their talents. Is a solid/good/great HS kid going to want to go somewhere he's going to be able to play and contribute or one where he has to sit on the bench the next couple of years because there's always a bunch of JUCO guys getting placed ahead of them due to experience at a higher level? Some kids don't care, but many do.