WICHITA STATE (4-0) vs. LIBERTY (3-0) Game Thread

[newshock1234]

I always know when we lose, cuz our game threads are 10 pages longer lol

[BOBB]

All about match ups guys.
Liberty is one smart bunch of white dudes that know how to play the game.
They passed and moved without the ball and were a joy to watch.
They also proved you don't need a 6"10" shot stuffer in the paint to win.

Don't get on the HCPM and this team after that game. They aren't there yet 5 games in the season.
It was a learning experience and yes, they got schooled tonight.
When I watched Liberty do the same to Furman the night before, I knew tonight would be a challenge.
Liberty is just a well coached, fundamental team that plays well together. Vermont better be ready to go on Sunday or they will get their asses waxed too
If WSU can pop STL and get out of there with two wins, mission accomplished.

Stay positive guys. Better days are ahead.

That is all.

Obviously it’s fair to say turning on the coach five games in would be a knee-jerk reaction. I am asking you though, did you see any offense other than clear outs for one on one? I saw one pick and roll executed with Ballard and then the rest were just decoys apparently. How were there so few paint touches?

Were there no adjustments we could have made defensively?

HCPM has been with these guys since the summer. Are the systems that difficult to pick up? How were like 1:5 A/TO?

I fully expect to get out-duded a lot this year. That isn’t what happened last night. I have had bad days, hell even bad stretches at the office, where someone judging me on that performance would rightfully give me my walking papers, but over a 20 year career I’ve had a lot more good days than bad. So, I’m willing to chalk that up to a bad performance by the coach, but that was a stinker last night.

[molly jabali]

Mills has his work cut out for him. Especially if Beverly is out for any length of time.

This game we were utterly unprepared and outcoached. There were no adjustments made. That combined with hero ball and, lack of effort on rebounding, and just bad BBIQ = a blowout. We have to find a way to do something besides whoever brings the ball up gets to drive the line and throw up a shot or get a Turnover.

3 assist on 24 made baskets
16 Turnovers
ended up equal on rebounds to a team that is drastically undersized.

About the only positive I can come up with is we shot FTs decent.

Easy to say you were 'outcoached' when your team is 'outmanned'.....relax a bit....5 games in...limited players so far...he has not forgotten how to coach...

[wu-unit]

We were so bad that Google gave us 2 losses. Probably 1 for the game and an extra for how bad we played in the 2nd half.

[Stickboy46]

Easy to say you were 'outcoached' when your team is 'outmanned'.....relax a bit....5 games in...limited players so far...he has not forgotten how to coach...

We weren't outmanned last night though. We had a LOT of advantages over them. They only played 7 players until they cleared the benches at the end, same as us. They were just playing cohesive offense. We weren't. If we were playing Houston .. then sure we would be outmanned.

[asiseeit]

3-16 compared to 18-11 speaks volumes - not a matter of being outmanned

[Stickboy46]

Looking at KenPom numbers. For reference, Liberty and WSU have nearly identical defensive rankings (in the 60s). Liberty is the 28th ranked offense .... we are the 217th.

We have the 330th best Assist/FGM percentage in D1. Our offensive style isn't generating assists all year. We only assist on 35% of made baskets. For comparison, the number one team in assist percentage is ... Kansas .. at 77%

[Atxshoxfan]

It was obvious that the game plan was to clear the lane for the mis-match on XB. But we had other mis-matches as well. The guys need to learn how to move and get open and XB needs to learn when to dish.
They'll get there, but it sure can be frustrating in the meantime.

[ShockTalk]

We weren't outmanned last night though. We had a LOT of advantages over them. They only played 7 players until they cleared the benches at the end, same as us. They were just playing cohesive offense. We weren't. If we were playing Houston .. then sure we would be outmanned.

In fact, their top 3 minutes guys were 37,35, and 33 while our top 3 were 38, 34, and 30.

[jcdshocker]

Looking at KenPom numbers. For reference, Liberty and WSU have nearly identical defensive rankings (in the 60s). Liberty is the 28th ranked offense .... we are the 217th.

We have the 330th best Assist/FGM percentage in D1. Our offensive style isn't generating assists all year. We only assist on 35% of made baskets. For comparison, the number one team in assist percentage is ... Kansas .. at 77%

Ouch! That is a telling statistic.

[JVShocker]

I thought the Shocks would have difficulty in this second game all along. But, ouch. They fought hard early, and then it just kind of went to pieces.

In regards to the style of play, the personnel are certainly contributing to the lack of assists. But it is what it is. That's the style of play. That's the offense HCPM runs. Don't know if my griping about it will do much good. Sure those numbers will improve over time. But historically, PM teams don't have high assist numbers. I looked. I think they averaged 14 A and 11 TO at ORU last season. Not even that good the year before. Baylor (the HCPM background) averaged 14 and 12. No the WSU stats aren't near that level (at 11 A and 12 TO per game), but neither are the players and role players. Probably limits what they can do. This was a punch in the mouth, and WSU looked bad afterwards.

The games have been infinitely more entertaining (wins and losses be damned). I'm still a Shocker at heart, so I'll keep watching. Keep fighting Shockers.

[ShockHat]

I thought the Shocks would have difficulty in this second game all along. But, ouch. They fought hard early, and then it just kind of went to pieces.

In regards to the style of play, the personnel are certainly contributing to the lack of assists. But it is what it is. That's the style of play. That's the offense HCPM runs. Don't know if my griping about it will do much good. Sure those numbers will improve over time. But historically, PM teams don't have high assist numbers. I looked. I think they averaged 14 A and 11 TO at ORU last season. Not even that good the year before. Baylor (the HCPM background) averaged 14 and 12. No the WSU stats aren't near that level (at 11 A and 12 TO per game), but neither are the players and role players. Probably limits what they can do. This was a punch in the mouth, and WSU looked bad afterwards.

The games have been infinitely more entertaining (wins and losses be damned). I'm still a Shocker at heart, so I'll keep watching. Keep fighting Shockers.

It’s been a long day, so I’m just asking for clarification. Paul Mills is big on iso and low on assists? And so is Baylor? Personally, I don’t care about any stats except the win, and with a respectable amount, but it is good to know.

[MadDog]

I agree but I think KP has had plenty of time to show us that he's made of more than powder puffs. But he hasn't, and I'd be surprised if he ever does at this point. He has the ability to make some nice passes but beyond that I see absolutely nothing. I've never seen a guy with his height play so small and weak in all my life. And I'm not exaggerating.
The coaching staff and the rest of the team still have my support and I am enjoying watching the growth. But KP is not growing.

Have you watched Jacob Germany play? Wonder why he never gets in the games? KP is light years better. It’s not even close.

[Stickboy46]

I thought the Shocks would have difficulty in this second game all along. But, ouch. They fought hard early, and then it just kind of went to pieces.

In regards to the style of play, the personnel are certainly contributing to the lack of assists. But it is what it is. That's the style of play. That's the offense HCPM runs. Don't know if my griping about it will do much good. Sure those numbers will improve over time. But historically, PM teams don't have high assist numbers. I looked. I think they averaged 14 A and 11 TO at ORU last season. Not even that good the year before. Baylor (the HCPM background) averaged 14 and 12. No the WSU stats aren't near that level (at 11 A and 12 TO per game), but neither are the players and role players. Probably limits what they can do. This was a punch in the mouth, and WSU looked bad afterwards.

The games have been infinitely more entertaining (wins and losses be damned). I'm still a Shocker at heart, so I'll keep watching. Keep fighting Shockers.

If that's how its going to be played. He better find another Max Abmas who can create and score on his own.

I did check Here are the KP Asst/FGM rankings for Oral Roberts under HCPM

2020: 311
2021: 327
2022: 356 (2nd to last in the NCAA)
2023: 245

So yea .. i guess we should get used to people creating for themselves and not others.

NOTE: looking at the KP stats/rankings for Oral Roberts under HCPM is bad ... oof .. lower than I remember

[TrackSuitAndTie]

If that's how its going to be played. He better find another Max Abmas who can create and score on his own.

I did check Here are the KP Asst/FGM rankings for Oral Roberts under HCPM

2020: 311
2021: 327
2022: 356 (2nd to last in the NCAA)
2023: 245

So yea .. i guess we should get used to people creating for themselves and not others.

NOTE: looking at the KP stats/rankings for Oral Roberts under HCPM is bad ... oof .. lower than I remember

oof.jpg

Oral Roberts was elite at two things under HCPM (with Abmas): not turning the ball over and 3 point shooting. They also were pretty good at not fouling the last two seasons.