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WICHITA STATE (4-0) vs. LIBERTY (3-0) Game Thread

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  • Originally posted by Aargh View Post

    I don't think I've seen it mentioned that the wheels fell off in the second half when Bell went to the bench with foul trouble. Liberty went on something like a 10-0 run to turn a small lead into a big lead. The Shox had one run left, but then things really fell apart late in the game, which may have been a factor of fatigue.

    One thing that always remains true: Haters gonna hate.
    He committed his 3rd and final foul with about 16:45 left in the 2nd half. According to play by play he was out for roughly three and a half minutes and they went on a whopping 6-2 run during that time. One of those six points was a FT due to his foul.

    We cut the lead to two at 10:40 and kept it there until the hit a three at 9:18. At the under 8 timeout (6:58) we were down 10. From 9:18 to 5:58 we didn't score at all and Bell was in during that stretch and most of the rest of the game where the score got worse. At the under 4 timeout (3:55) we were down 17.

    So at the time he committed that 3rd foul, we were down 6. When he showed back up in the play by play three and a half minutes later, we were down 10.

    So your point above simply lacks and factual substance.

    But one thing remains true, sunshine pumpers gonna pump and pump hard.
    Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
    RIP Guy Always A Shocker
    Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
    ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
    Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
    Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

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    • Originally posted by pinstripers View Post
      Let's just say then, that the Liberty coach made brilliant halftime adjustments
      How many half time adjustments do you think even the best coach in the whole world can make after coaching 7 or 8 new kids 5 games into a season, compared with a coach that has 4 year players playing for him? You can only adjust within what you have been able to work on in the limited time you have had them.

      You do know this wonderful coach, Ritchie, who" outcoached" HCPM got his ASS handed to him his first season coaching Liberty, right?

      So did Marshall.

      So did Turgeon.

      Why, because they were getting outcoached? No ... because they were implementing an entire new system with kids they have never coached, and it takes a couple years people.
      Kung Wu say, man making mistake in elevator wrong on many levels.

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      • Originally posted by SubGod22 View Post

        He committed his 3rd and final foul with about 16:45 left in the 2nd half. According to play by play he was out for roughly three and a half minutes and they went on a whopping 6-2 run during that time. One of those six points was a FT due to his foul.

        We cut the lead to two at 10:40 and kept it there until the hit a three at 9:18. At the under 8 timeout (6:58) we were down 10. From 9:18 to 5:58 we didn't score at all and Bell was in during that stretch and most of the rest of the game where the score got worse. At the under 4 timeout (3:55) we were down 17.

        So at the time he committed that 3rd foul, we were down 6. When he showed back up in the play by play three and a half minutes later, we were down 10.

        So your point above simply lacks and factual substance.

        But one thing remains true, sunshine pumpers gonna pump and pump hard.
        So Sub, is your point that you think IB was a better coach than PM? Or is it that PM just isn't a very good coach? Or that he isn't as good as the Liberty coach.
        I won't tolerate rude behavior

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        • Originally posted by Kung Wu View Post

          How many half time adjustments do you think even the best coach in the whole world can make after coaching 7 or 8 new kids 5 games into a season, compared with a coach that has 4 year players playing for him? You can only adjust within what you have been able to work on in the limited time you have had them.

          You do know this wonderful coach, Ritchie, who" outcoached" HCPM got his ASS handed to him his first season coaching Liberty, right?

          So did Marshall.

          So did Turgeon.

          Why, because they were getting outcoached? No ... because they were implementing an entire new system with kids they have never coached, and it takes a couple years people.
          So we should never expect any type of adjustments to be made in game or at halftime because the team is new?

          All coaching must take place between games? Does Mills have an in game purpose in your mind if he's incapable, or the players are incapable, of making any sort of change after the initial game plan has been initiated?

          Again, I'm not sure anyone is complaining because we lost this game. People are perplexed that nothing ever changed even when things went sideways. Will there be growing pains? Hell yes there will. Does that excuse not attempting to change things up? Not at all.

          If we're recruiting kids that are so one dimensional in how they play and understand the game that's another issue. There are plenty of general concepts that could be used to change/alter the strategy that isn't rocket surgery and can be done in game. I've seen coaches draw up plays that have never been shown teams or using a defense they've never practiced and while it may not be perfect, any player who has a basic understanding of the game should be able to more or less adjust and do it within reason. If we have a team full of players incapable of processing any of that then we're in for an even longer season than some of us believe. Because apparently if we go into a game with the wrong game plan, or the other team adjusts to make that game plan less effective, we're screwed because we can only do one thing during any given game.

          I love ya Kung, but that's ridiculous.
          Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
          RIP Guy Always A Shocker
          Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
          ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
          Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
          Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

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          • Originally posted by Woodrow View Post

            So Sub, is your point that you think IB was a better coach than PM? Or is it that PM just isn't a very good coach? Or that he isn't as good as the Liberty coach.
            IB was a shitty coach. I was on record saying we shouldn't hire him. Then on record as hoping he'd figure it out. Then wanting him gone.

            The jury is still out on PM. I was never overly impressed with what he did at ORU being carried by one player. He seems like a good guy. I want him to succeed. But I'm not going to kneel and pleasure a coach just because he's coaching at my favorite school. PM didn't appear to do jack **** in the 2nd half and we got flat out embarrassed because of it. Again, I expected to lose that game. I didn't expect to see the team fall apart and nothing to be done to try and stop the bleeding. That is definitely concerning as Liberty is the only decent team we've played so far. I'm still baffled why we never tried to use our post players inside.

            As far as the Liberty coach, he was a hell of a lot better on Friday. Is he a better coach? I don't know. Was he a better coach on Friday? Absolutely.

            None of the above has anything to do with Aargh claiming that Bell and foul trouble led to the debacle. The quoted post was all about calling out those who are making **** up to make some lame excuse. I was curious if I had missed or forgotten something about foul trouble being the cause of things getting out of hand. It absolutely was not and that was the point of the quoted post.

            Hell, I create scenarios in my head all of the time, but I don't go around pretending that they actually happened and that it excuses some weak as behavior or something.
            Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
            RIP Guy Always A Shocker
            Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
            ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
            Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
            Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

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            • Originally posted by Woodrow View Post

              So Sub, is your point that you think IB was a better coach than PM? Or is it that PM just isn't a very good coach? Or that he isn't as good as the Liberty coach.
              Why does it have to mean any of those things? Why can't it just be that HCPM was outcoached in that one game?

              What's with the obsession that if you don't speak 100% praise of HCPM it means you hate him, or you have written him off, or that you think FHCIB is a better coach? Why can't it just mean you think he was outcoached in one game, or that you don't like the way he handles one thing.

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              • Some people aren't happy unless they're happy, and some people aren't happy unless they're not happy. We have both residing on this board!
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                • Absolutely hilarious to me that stick has separated himself from sunshine pumper central. He used to lead the pack there.
                  Deuces Valley.
                  ... No really, deuces.
                  ________________
                  "Enjoy the ride."

                  - a smart man

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                  • Liberty was one game. I am not paid to coach but I would have gone inside to our big guys time after time for easy buckets or fouls. They were short and soft inside and we did NOT take advantage. We would have had them in serious foul trouble the 2nd half. Not going to get down on Mills for one game. He adjusted nicely the next game. Can't stick to a single "style" if it isn't working. Have to adapt to the skill sets, size and advantages each game. The more of an inside threat we are getting double teamed the more the outside opens up for CR. I think our team character should be more to establish inside IF WE CAN. I liked what I saw of both Germany and Joy as long as they don't force up bad shots. By league I don't think depth will be much of a concern. Sixteen W's and 1or2 in tournament. If CR can shoot 40% threes and we can get one or two more north of 35% we could do a little better.
                    Last edited by asiseeit; November 20, 2023, 05:33 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by SubGod22 View Post
                      The jury is still out on PM.
                      That’s a bold statement to make 6 games into his first season at WSU.
                      Deuces Valley.
                      ... No really, deuces.
                      ________________
                      "Enjoy the ride."

                      - a smart man

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                      • Originally posted by ShockerFever View Post

                        That’s a bold statement to make 6 games into his first season at WSU.
                        How else was I supposed to answer the question? That he's the savior and a sure fire winner like some on the board seem to imply?

                        Infinity Art Glass - Fantastic local artist and Shocker fan
                        RIP Guy Always A Shocker
                        Carpenter Place - A blessing to many young girls/women
                        ICT S.O.S - Great local cause fighting against human trafficking
                        Wartick Insurance Agency - Saved me money with more coverage.
                        Save Shocker Sports - A rallying cry

                        Comment


                        • I remember many years ago ShockerFever posted a large photo of Greg Lansing after a loss to Indiana State and said something to the effect of we were just out coached by this guy. Does it mean that Marshall wasn't the better coach? Everyone knows the answer to this. Anyone can have a bad day. It doesn't mean we can't point it out.
                          Shocker fan for life after witnessing my first game in person, the 80-74 win over the #12 Creighton Bluejays at the Kansas Coliseum.

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                          • Coaches usually get too much credit and too much blame. I think CBB is a sport where that’s maybe not as much the case, coaches influence more here than some other sports at other levels.

                            I have no idea whether or not PM was out coached Friday. Unless you’re a basketball coach who intently re watched the film - I doubt many on here really know.

                            But the score probably provides a decent hint.

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                            • Originally posted by Stickboy46 View Post

                              Why does it have to mean any of those things? Why can't it just be that HCPM was outcoached in that one game?

                              What's with the obsession that if you don't speak 100% praise of HCPM it means you hate him, or you have written him off, or that you think FHCIB is a better coach? Why can't it just mean you think he was outcoached in one game, or that you don't like the way he handles one thing.
                              I think Sub already answered and it makes sense. I probably didn't follow the thread back far enough to understand the context. I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I don't remember saying anything about hating or written off.
                              I won't tolerate rude behavior

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                              • Originally posted by Woodrow View Post

                                I think Sub already answered and it makes sense. I probably didn't follow the thread back far enough to understand the context. I'm not even sure what you are talking about. I don't remember saying anything about hating or written off.
                                Sorry, second part was more a general comment about the board, not necessarily directed at you personally. Right now if you mention anything negative, the wolves seem to come out.

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