Just how loaded are we??!!

[Yellow Snow]

I always think the preseason dividing of minutes is silly, particularly when we're dividing minutes of people no one has ever seen play. However, it's harmless fun in the offseason.

What isn't harmless is the damage being done to the program with,our JUCO heavy roster. It is an embarassment that we have one player, DWill, out of the Junior and Senior classes that played here as a Freshman. 2009: Dwill, Richardson, Hamilton and Manigault. 2010: Didn't bother. Brought in Orupke (one can argue) Ragland and Smith all JUCO. 2011: White, Wessel, Cotton, Ede and Baker as Freshmen with Hall and Anacreon as JUCO. Ede is gone and some are speculating about the future of Wessel and or Baker. We find ourselves today two over the scholarship limit by most educated guesses with the assumption that we may have 1-2 freshman recruits not qualify, giving us potentially Wiggins, Lufile, Early as JUCO and Green and VanVleet as potential four year players.

My friends, this IS a recruiting and management problem. I will get on board and support the team and enjoy the talent we put out. But, next years team will likely be dominated by Dwill, JUCO's and a one year transfer player. I don't like it.

I agree 100%.

You are going to have a difficult time putting together a complete resume with 1 4 year senior, 1 senior transfer and 3 juco recruits. One of which is a Div. II Juco player. There have been recruiting issues, nothing major, but issues. I would start with Anecreon.

[Ricardo del Rio]

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Thoughtful discourse and interesting.

I have a foot in each boat.

[BOBB]

Well, successful early teams don't count because of a different environment. Turgeon rebuilt the prgram with Jamar, Randy, Kampman, Miller, PJ, Ogirri and Brauer. Martin, Karon, Fridge and Wilson were great additions to that nucleus of stability. 3G rebuilt the program with Kyles, Murry and Stutz with Durley providing more continuity. Hannah, Smith, Blair, Hall and Ragland were additions to that nucleus.

I'm not saying that the JUCOs are bad kids, or bad players. I am saying that you don't build a successful program on the back of two year players and that I would take a fifteen win season with or young guys getting more minutes over twenty wins with a bunch of two year players.

@SubGod22: is making my argument better than me.

[shockmonster]

Look, no one is saying that recruiting mistakes haven't been made but damaging and embarassing. How many of you are buying to that at this time? I think that we've had good kids that represent us well up to this point.

[shockmonster]

I don't disagree with what BOBB just said.

[BOBB]

Regarding embarassing, it is embarassing that we have but one senior or junior that,started their career at WSU. Regarding damaging, maybe "damaging if continued" is a more nuanced way to express it.

[Aargh]

I prefer 4-year players to 2-year players. I also prefer winning to losing.

If my preference for 4-year players would have leiminated signing any JuCos this year, we would probably have recruited a 6'5" - 6'7" SF type who would probably be a top-300 HS player to substitute for Early nd a 6'3" - 6'4" SG type to replace Wiggins. That player would also probably be a top-300 type player. That's pretty optimistic recruiting.

Then our starting lineup probablyt has a Fr SF and one of the early subs at guard is a Fr. I beleive both Wiggins and Early will be better than a top-300 HS player next year., so by signing JuCo's Marshall is putting better and more experienced talent on the court. That's likely to produce more wins. I prefer more wins to all Fr.

[jocoshock]

From the Eagle article:

FYI only. No implied statements...

Junior colleges long supplied the Shockers with important basketball players. Some of the program’s top transfers:
• Guard Leonard Kelley, from Parsons (now Labette) Junior College, spread two seasons of eligibility over three seasons, helping the Shockers to the NIT in 1962 and 1963 and playing on the 1964 MVC champions before graduating at semester. He averaged 15 points in 1961-62.
• Center Rich Morsden averaged a school-record 27.3 points at Hutchinson before transferring to WSU. Undersized at 6-foot-4, he averaged 15 points and 8.1 rebounds in 1972-73 to earn All-MVC honors.
• Guard Bob Wilson, from Northeastern (Colo.), led WSU in scoring in 1973 (17.6) and 1974 (20). Chicago picked him in the third round of the 1974 NBA Draft and he played parts of four seasons with the Bulls, Boston and Indiana.
• Center Bob Elmore played three seasons at WSU after one at Wharton County (Texas). Elmore averaged 14.1 points and 12.1 rebounds from 1973-77 and earned All-MVC honors three times.
• Guards Randy Smithson and Tony Martin and forward Jay Jackson played crucial roles on coach Gene Smithson’s teams in the early 1980s. Smithson, who played one season at Cowley before joining his father, averaged 13 points and 5.1 assists for the 1981 NCAA Tournament team. Martin, from Casper (Wyo.), averaged 12.5 points as a junior in 1981 and 11.5 in 1982. Jackson, who played with Smithson at Cowley, served as WSU’s defensive specialist for three seasons.
• Guard Lew Hill, from San Jacinto, averaged 13.1 points to help the 1987-88 Shockers to the NCAA Tournament and earned a spot on the All-MVC second team.
• Forward Aaron Hogg, from Jacksonville (Texas), was named MVC Newcomer and Sixth Man of the year in 2002-03 after averaging 12.2 points and 5.2 rebounds.
• Guard Clevin Hannah led WSU in scoring in 2009 (11.2) and 2010 (12) after transferring from Chipola (Fla.). He was an All-MVC pick in 2010.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/2012/04/28/231...#storylink=cpy

[SubGod22]

I prefer 4-year players to 2-year players. I also prefer winning to losing.

If my preference for 4-year players would have leiminated signing any JuCos this year, we would probably have recruited a 6'5" - 6'7" SF type who would probably be a top-300 HS player to substitute for Early nd a 6'3" - 6'4" SG type to replace Wiggins. That player would also probably be a top-300 type player. That's pretty optimistic recruiting.

Then our starting lineup probablyt has a Fr SF and one of the early subs at guard is a Fr. I beleive both Wiggins and Early will be better than a top-300 HS player next year., so by signing JuCo's Marshall is putting better and more experienced talent on the court. That's likely to produce more wins. I prefer more wins to all Fr.

I think you're agreeing with BOBB and I but I'm not sure if you know it or not. JUCOs fill a need. Normally where recruiting has failed. The next couple of years will most likely show if we're going to rely too much on JUCOs or not. I'd also say that I believe 3G and company would be landing better than just Top 300 types. FVV is a 100-150 type and I'd guess that Hawkins is closer to 150 than 300. Same for Green.

The question is, would you take a JUCO kid that might rank out better than that for two years, or a couple of those kids in and around 150 for 4 years? You might take the shot at a JUCO if you're thin in a position, but if not, I'd sure as hell hope you'd pick the HS kid.

[BostonWu]

I don't recall very many JUCO players during the Cohen and Thompson eras. They seemed to build their base off HS recruits. Randy seemed to be right down the middle as was Turgeon. IMO there is no definitive recruiting strategy for success.

I would also point out that we're not one of the blue bloods that can hand pick the best 4-year recruits across the country.

[SubGod22]

I would also point out that we're not one of the blue bloods that can hand pick the best 4-year recruits across the country.

That's not the point. It will be extremely difficult to maintain a high level of success if we rely on JUCOs as the foundation. I believe that is the fear of some. I'm not too worried as we've had holes to fill from poor recruiting for a couple of years. That's looking like less of an issue. I suspect we'll see the occasional JUCO big, but I doubt we'll be seeing too many guards in the near future. We have a solid young stable working there. We're still showing some weakness in post recruiting. But it's tougher to find bigs.

[KraRam]

I don't recall very many JUCO players during the Cohen and Thompson eras. They seemed to build their base off HS recruits.

Yea, how did that work out for Shocker Nation?

[C0|dB|00ded]

Coach is trying to get the best basketball players period. It doesn't matter if they have one year of eligibility or four. I believe a top juco player is ready to contribute quicker than a top 150'ish freshman straight out of high school. If our program continues to recruit and sign the best players available, the results will show on the court. As the results show on the court, we will be able to sign more top 150 true freshman.

The idea of having a fresh crop of 18 yr old kids sign with the program each year and play for four years is appealing in a traditional sense, but it makes no difference to me. The top programs in the country rarely have their best players stay longer than two years. The kind of players we are signing out of juco's lately will make no less of an impact on our program than a lot of 4-star high school recruits with the benefit of them being older and having more developed bodies when they arrive.

I want 'em big, mean, and fast and I could care less if they come from Collegiate H.S. or Coffeyville C.C.


T


...:cool:

[WstateU]

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Thoughtful discourse and interesting.

I have a foot in each boat.

AKA The 8 Drunk Monkeys...

[WstateU]

I think the title of this thread can also refer to some of the posters here on SN. :drunk:

Pretty loaded...