Just how loaded are we??!!

[BOBB]

It's all about putting the best players you have on the court. That's what it's always about. When we have a freshman that outperforms an upperclassman you will see him playing. That doesn't happen very often many places.

You are misreading what I am saying. I would love a team of upperclassmen starters. Upperclassmen that started their careers here as freshmen. A JUCO is an upperclassman in name only. It should be about putting the best TEAM on the court and you do that with players that have developed under the system, not an all-star line up of academic casualties and malcontent transfers.

@shock: : Rings? MVC Tournament ring, NIT ring, Class ring, Little Orphan Annie decoder ring, or NCAA ring? NCAA rings don't go to JUCO laden teams. The others? Potentially.

[jocoshock]

It has been reported that as many as 40% of players recruited to D1 basketball programs will transfer at some point in their career. It's is getting harder and harder to recruit and retains a large core of players to teams across the board; not just at WSU. HCGM in the article a few days ago said that they didn't plan to do this (juco recruits) but it has worked out pretty well. I know one thing. WSU has at least two quality true point guards on our team next year. KU has none...

Whether you are getting players from Jucos, transfers or prep schools, everyone has to do what they have to do to get talent. I think we are doing very wll right now despite some people's concern about over reliance on juco players...

[WstateU]

It has been reported that as many as 40% of players recruited to D1 basketball programs will transfer at some point in their career. It's is getting harder and harder to recruit and retains a large core of players to teams across the board; not just at WSU. HCGM in the article a few days ago said that they didn't plan to do this (juco recruits) but it has worked out pretty well. I know one thing. WSU has at least two quality true point guards on our team next year. KU has none...

Whether you are getting players from Jucos, transfers or prep schools, everyone has to do what they have to do to get talent. I think we are doing very wll right now despite some people's concern about over reliance on juco players...

[pie n eye]

I don't understand the negativity towards Juco players. To me it's just like the book Moneyball. Billy Beane prefers to draft players from the collegiate level over players from the high school level. His reasoning is that guys in college give you a larger statistical base against tougher competition and therefore its easier to project their success in the majors.

I know Coach said they didn't set out to recruit this way but I think the same reasoning applies to college recruiting. The Juco level is more competitive than high school so it's easier to predict how a player might do at he d1 level. They've also had 2 years to mature on someone else's dime. Unlike freshmen recruits who you may keep around for 4 years and get 1 or 2 years of contribution from, or none at all. Most of our Juco guys under Marshall have produced at a high level for 2 years. They have a greater sense of urgency.

In my eyes it's silly as a fan to care whether the players are Juco recruits or high school seniors.

Now as a coach I can see the benefit of getting four year players over transfers. They have to work much harder to recruit new players every 2 years instead of 3 or 4. But maybe that's not even an issue considering the non stop nature of recruiting anyways.

[shoxtop]

How many 4 year players from the 90s/early 00s would be able to take the starting job of our recent jucos? Players have many different reasons for going the juco route. Some naturally develop later than others and find their game later. Do you want to take the chance on this type of player right out of high school? No one does. A good example is Carl. He was a football player out of high school. After two years working on his game at the juco level, he has come in here and done a great job.

It takes the right players to come from juco and contribute. Other than a few last minute options that didn't pan out, our juco recruits have panned out just as well or (dare I say it) better than our hs recruits lately. I agree that I would much rather see players come in that could play all 4 years (FVV), but if you are putting the best team on the floor that you can year in and year out, it is very difficult to have very many players that need time to really develop for 2 years. I would much rather reload than rebuild.

[SubGod22]

I agree with BOBB. And I believe 3G even said it in the article that JUCO guys are there to plug holes. You don't build a successful program around a bunch of JUCO recruits. And you may say that JUCO guys have proven themselves against better competition, but that's not always the case. A lot of JUCO ball is very unstructured and a lot of one on one stuff. So it's not always the best way to judge. This year, we had a need to get some JUCO guys if for nothing else but to balance the classes out. I cringe at the thought of having to bring in 3 JUCO guys though.

You build a successful program through FR and developing them. I'm excited about the talent coming in, but I'd be more excited if we didn't have to recruit like this and could focus on the HS ranks. The good news is we really shouldn't need to bring in any more JUCOs next year. We have Watkins coming in and he'll join the class of Cotton, White and Wessel. Four is enough. And if for some reason Wessel didn't work out as some speculate, three would be just fine for the class.

[pie n eye]

You are misreading what I am saying. I would love a team of upperclassmen starters. Upperclassmen that started their careers here as freshmen. A JUCO is an upperclassman in name only. It should be about putting the best TEAM on the court and you do that with players that have developed under the system, not an all-star line up of academic casualties and malcontent transfers

You're making these Juco guys out to be a bunch of troublemakers. The guys I see on our team couldn't be further from that. Maybe you have info on Ramon Clemente, Gabe Blair, Ben Smith, Joe Ragland, Clevin Hannah etc. that I don't but as far as I know they all stayed out of trouble, graduated, and produced on the court.

Apparently your only issue is that they only played here two years. We'd all like the players to stick around forever but even four year players graduate eventually.

At least you got one thing right. It is about putting our best players on the court. Only it shouldn't make a bit of difference whether they're transfers or four year guys.

[SubGod22]

How many 4 year players from the 90s/early 00s would be able to take the starting job of our recent jucos? Players have many different reasons for going the juco route. Some naturally develop later than others and find their game later. Do you want to take the chance on this type of player right out of high school? No one does. A good example is Carl. He was a football player out of high school. After two years working on his game at the juco level, he has come in here and done a great job.

It takes the right players to come from juco and contribute. Other than a few last minute options that didn't pan out, our juco recruits have panned out just as well or (dare I say it) better than our hs recruits lately. I agree that I would much rather see players come in that could play all 4 years (FVV), but if you are putting the best team on the floor that you can year in and year out, it is very difficult to have very many players that need time to really develop for 2 years. I would much rather reload than rebuild.

You can reload just as easily with HS players. Who says HS guys need 2 years to develop? We're beyond recruiting a bunch of those types. Most likely, those types may be the occasional big man like Uwadiae. Plugging in JUCOs doesn't necessarily mean you're reloading either. They could just as easily be an Anacreon as a Hall. Our staff has done a good job at minimizing that, but JUCO ball and D1 ball aren't even close in comparison to the structure and work ethic they involve.

Like I've always said, and 3G seemed to say in the article, JUCOs are there for the most part to plug holes. It's sad that we've had so many holes lately. Hopefully we can get it down to not having to bring in 3 JUCO guys a year. It will be extremely difficult to maintain a top program doing that.

[SubGod22]

You're making these Juco guys out to be a bunch of troublemakers. The guys I see on our team couldn't be further from that. Maybe you have info on Ramon Clemente, Gabe Blair, Ben Smith, Joe Ragland, Clevin Hannah etc. that I don't but as far as I know they all stayed out of trouble, graduated, and produced on the court.

Apparently your only issue is that they only played here two years. We'd all like the players to stick around forever but even four year players graduate eventually.

At least you got one thing right. It is about putting our best players on the court. Only it shouldn't make a bit of difference whether they're transfers or four year guys.

Gabe wasn't a JUCO. And I think BOBB is more worried about programs stability than anything. Relying heavily on JUCOs is a dangerous direction and extremely difficult to build and/or maintain a program relying too much on that. They're used to plug holes, and sadly, the staff has had a number of holes to fill lately. I don't think we're going to see near as many JUCO guys the next few years and the program as a whole will be better off for it.

[proshox]

BOBB, HCGM's winning percentage should speak for itself.

Please direct me to a team at WSU that embraced your limiting philosophy and was as or more successful than HCGM. If you can find that team existed, please confirm the number of players that transferred out of the program that could have been upperclassman. Also, please confirm the number of players on that team that would transfers in. Lastly, please indicate whether that team had success for more than one year.

I will hang up and listen for the response; unfortunately, I think I will be waiting forever.

[ShockerGorilla]

I think the title of this thread can also refer to some of the posters here on SN. :drunk:

[pie n eye]

Gabe wasn't a JUCO. And I think BOBB is more worried about programs stability than anything. Relying heavily on JUCOs is a dangerous direction and extremely difficult to build and/or maintain a program relying too much on that. They're used to plug holes, and sadly, the staff has had a number of holes to fill lately. I don't think we're going to see near as many JUCO guys the next few years and the program as a whole will be better off for it.

I guess I'm still confused about how JUCO players destabilize the program. I would say that four straight years in the postseason, three straight top 2 finishes in Valley reg season, a valley championship, and increased win totals every year sounds pretty stable to me. We've done a lot of that with heavy contributions from Juco guys.

In fact I think someone could make the point that the evidence at WSU shows these Juco guys have actually helped stabilize the program from year to year.

[SubGod22]

Some of you just don't listen. Or don't comprehend.

Nobody is saying JUCOs can't be used to fill holes. In fact, that's what 3G said in the article. BOBB and others worry about focusing too much on JUCOs as they don't help stabalize the program if that's where most of the effort is. It can help in the short term, but name me a successful program that relies heavily on JUCOs for a long period of time. We recently had holes to fill due to recruiting failures a couple of years ago. So the need has been there. Some just hope we don't continue to bring in 2 to 4 JUCOs every year. I don't think we will based off of 3Gs comments. I'd be surprised if we bring one in, other than Watkins, next season. Unless we have more defections, I'd be surprised to see anyone other than potentially a JUCO post on the roster in the near future.

[jocoshock]

Even under MT, jucos and transfers played a prominent role. The S16 team has Kyle Wilson and Karon Bradley as transfers and Ryan Martin as a juco.. He also had a couple of bigs (Ryan Bradley and that other guy who transferred to Southwestern) that did not contribute and left the program...

His incoming class before he left had Ramon Clemente and the big who ditched us for Illinois State to go along with Evan Baker and the Big who ditched us to follow MT. 50/50 between Freshman and Jucos...

Don't have time to crunch the numbers, but I am not sure HSGM is drastically higher than that ratio of freshmen to transfer/jucos...

[shockmonster]

What isn't harmless is the damage being done to the program with,our JUCO heavy roster. It is an embarassment that we have......

My friends, this IS a recruiting and management problem. I will get on board and support the team and enjoy the talent we put out. But, next years team will likely be dominated by Dwill, JUCO's and a one year transfer player. I don't like it.

Damage and embarassment are not words that come to my mind when assessing Coach Marshall's basketball regime. How many years in a row have we been a contender? How many players have not graduated, obtained their degrees, and gotten into trouble while they've been here? How many juco kids and other transfers have come into our program and have been selfish players? Our team has been just that a true "team". I just don't see the program the same way that you and maybe a couple of your supporters see it. Sure MT had a Sweet 16 team and what happened to our chemistry the next year? This may happen in the future because it can be difficult to mesh new personalities into a program but it hasn't happened yet.