Wichita State at UCF Game Thread 2-8-22

[proshox]

so you're saying let's not do what works (getting Tyson freed up off a screen) and let's have Tyson, who is a notoriously below average ball handler that routinely drives straight into traps, initiate the offense whereby he will look to shoot threes off the bounce, which is not a good option, or feed to Porter for the drive. They'll never suspect anything. The only part of that plan that I like is when he gives the ball back to Porter.

Dan - I don’t know what to say other than we scored at an really good efficiency. The only misses late were lay-ups that didn’t fall. The designed action got Tyson open looks from deep and Craig easy lanes to drive thru. Either way it worked well.

Another thing to consider is only thing that worked late game at Tulane was Tyson. Everything else was a disaster (Ricky out of bounds, Ricky throwing it off of ref, Dex charge, Dex air all, Craig screening the wrong guys, Mo Charge). So your negative history on Tyson is definitely cherry picking what actually happens in late games to suit your narrative.

[proshox]

Again, the rule is more based on someone saving the ball, going out of bounds, and then being the first to touch it. I've watched the video and he does reenter the court while the inbounder is in possession of the ball so he's also not the first to touch it after returning to the court. This isn't football where he's completely forbidden from touching the ball until someone other than the person currently holding it touches it first. I'm not sure if that where some of the confusion comes into play or not.

I've seen the video and read what Taylor wrote. He's misunderstanding or misinterpreting the rule relative to the play at hand. If this is how the rule were implemented, we'd have a lot of dead ball situations where someone coming off the wing or out of the corner or even guys who run to the baseline to set up a screen to pop back out would be in violation because a lot of people step on the boundary lines in many instances there.

I don’t see players running out of bounds on inbounds plays. If they were consistently doing that those plays would be much easier to run.

[Dan]

Dan - I don’t know what to say other than we scored at an really good efficiency. The only misses late were lay-ups that didn’t fall. The designed action got Tyson open looks from deep and Craig easy lanes to drive thru. Either way it worked well.

Another thing to consider is only thing that worked late game at Tulane was Tyson. Everything else was a disaster (Ricky out of bounds, Ricky throwing it off of ref, Dex charge, Dex air all, Craig screening the wrong guys, Mo Charge). So your negative history on Tyson is definitely cherry picking what actually happens in late games to suit your narrative.

I just feel like IB goes into desperation mode and thinks he has to put the ball into Tyson's hands. Not sure our win/loss record when we're in tight games and he has Tyson take over, but we came up short last night.

[SubGod22]

I don’t see players running out of bounds on inbounds plays. If they were consistently doing that those plays would be much easier to run.

I was talking about live ball action, but they absolutely step out of bounds on in bounds plays too. You don't see it because you're not looking for outside reasons as to why we lost in those instances. It's not like he ran way out of bounds to avoid something, he stepped on the line which happens a fair amount when moving without the ball and near the boundaries.

Going out of your way to try and nitpick officiating as a cause for losing, especially when the officiating didn't get it wrong in this case, is pretty desperate.

[Stickboy46]

Again, the rule is more based on someone saving the ball, going out of bounds, and then being the first to touch it. I've watched the video and he does reenter the court while the inbounder is in possession of the ball so he's also not the first to touch it after returning to the court. This isn't football where he's completely forbidden from touching the ball until someone other than the person currently holding it touches it first. I'm not sure if that where some of the confusion comes into play or not.

I've seen the video and read what Taylor wrote. He's misunderstanding or misinterpreting the rule relative to the play at hand. If this is how the rule were implemented, we'd have a lot of dead ball situations where someone coming off the wing or out of the corner or even guys who run to the baseline to set up a screen to pop back out would be in violation because a lot of people step on the boundary lines in many instances there.

The counter point is you might be misinterpreting the rule. You are defining the UCF playing standing out of bounds as being the "first to touch the ball" because he's passing it in bounds. IMO (only my opinion, i'm not a ref) based on how other rules are written, he's not considered a "player touching the ball". Take the clock rule. Clock starts on "first player to touch the ball". They don't start the clock when they hand it to the person out of bounds, they start when the first person in the legal inbounds part of the court touches it. My assumption is that still applies here. They can't be the first person to touch the ball after going out of bounds, the player passing the ball in doesn't count.

That's just my interpretation. That's also how Craig interpreted the rules. Taylor said they asked the league for clarification so I'm sure he will update when that happens.

[Kung Wu]

Taylor with an interesting article. It appears the critical play from UCF had 3 blown calls. Perry travelled, it was out of bounds off Perry, then on the in bounds mahan went out of bounds and was the first to touch it which should have been a violation.

It's all nitpicky at this point, but interesting discussion ...

I disagree with Taylor's citation of Rule 9, Section 3, Article 1 which says "A player who steps out of bounds under the player's own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation." This is for people who step out of bounds during the normal course of play. You see multiple people walk out of bounds to get a ball, and then the thrower-in throws the ball to one of the guys that went to help fetch it. That has nothing to do with this rule.

What makes it a bad call is Rule 9, Section 4, Article 2a: "Art. 2. No player other than the thrower-in shall:
a Perform the throw-in or be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins."

That begs the question of when does a throw-in begin? And that is clear from Rule 7, Section 6, Article 4: "A throw-in and the throw-in count shall begin when the ball is at the disposal of the player entitled to the throw-in."

You clearly see the referee counting, so the throw-in has obviously begun. At that point, no teammate can step out of bounds or they should get lit up.

That's my story and I am sticking to it until a referee schools me otherwise.

[SubGod22]

I get what you're saying, but as a former ref that's not how it works in this case unless some rule/interpretation has changed since I stopped.

The clock may not start but the team is in possession of the ball.

Or how about full length inbounds after a made basket. It's been a long time since I've seen it done, but one player is inbounding the ball and throws it along the baseline, staying out of bounds, to another player who crossed the boundary. Defense flocks that way and forgets about the original inbounder who steps in and receives the inbounds pass with nobody guarding him. It also works because often times there's nobody guarding the original inbounder so a quick pass back to him once he's in bounds works well.

[Stickboy46]

I get what you're saying, but as a former ref that's not how it works in this case unless some rule/interpretation has changed since I stopped.

The clock may not start but the team is in possession of the ball.

Or how about full length inbounds after a made basket. It's been a long time since I've seen it done, but one player is inbounding the ball and throws it along the baseline, staying out of bounds, to another player who crossed the boundary. Defense flocks that way and forgets about the original inbounder who steps in and receives the inbounds pass with nobody guarding him. It also works because often times there's nobody guarding the original inbounder so a quick pass back to him once he's in bounds works well.

Per what Kung Wu posted that's a different thing. A made basket is not a "Designated Spot Throw In". You can't legally do what you are talking about in the situation we had vs UCF either.

[ShockerFever]

Dan - I don’t know what to say other than we scored at an really good efficiency. The only misses late were lay-ups that didn’t fall. The designed action got Tyson open looks from deep and Craig easy lanes to drive thru. Either way it worked well.

Another thing to consider is only thing that worked late game at Tulane was Tyson. Everything else was a disaster (Ricky out of bounds, Ricky throwing it off of ref, Dex charge, Dex air all, Craig screening the wrong guys, Mo Charge). So your negative history on Tyson is definitely cherry picking what actually happens in late games to suit your narrative.

If anybody’s cherry picking, it’s you who believes TE is incapable of wrongdoing.

Maybe if TE wouldn’t shoot 15 horrible shots per game, we wouldn’t be in late game predicaments.

[proshox]

I just feel like IB goes into desperation mode and thinks he has to put the ball into Tyson's hands. Not sure our win/loss record when we're in tight games and he has Tyson take over, but we came up short last night.

In late game situations the team isn’t going to make every shot so you have to look at the quality of the shot. We got a lot of good looks…in fact, some of the best looks of the game came in crunch time…

[proshox]

If anybody’s cherry picking, it’s you who believes TE is incapable of wrongdoing.

Maybe if TE wouldn’t shoot 15 horrible shots per game, we wouldn’t be in late game predicaments.

Tyson is far from perfect. With that stated he wasn’t the problem at Tulane or against UCF.

[ShockerFever]

Tyson is far from perfect. With that stated he wasn’t the problem at Tulane or against UCF.

That’s 2 of our 9 losses. What about the other 7?

[proshox]

That’s 2 of our 9 losses. What about the other 7?

He had some rough games… He doesn’t have the quickness required to overcome the lack of spacing created by his teammates throughout the first twenty games.

Tyson won’t have another rough game as long as Ricky, Dex, Kenny and Craig remain consistent threats to score.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

Just got back from out of town and watched both the SMU and UCF games. Shox played great D against SMU and minimized mistakes. I was feeling optimistic after that and then the UCF game happened. My goodness. Right back where we started. Had the game where they wanted it and let the Knights off the hook.

[WstateU]

Just got back from out of town and watched both the SMU and UCF games. Shox played great D against SMU and minimized mistakes. I was feeling optimistic after that and then the UCF game happened. My goodness. Right back where we started. Had the game where they wanted it and let the Knights off the hook.

Summing up my feelings at the half...