Wichita State at Oklahoma State Game Thread 12-1-21

[Kel Varnsen]

We may be playing a lot of zone this season.

Doc said it in the pregame thread - OSU is very similar to us. They play good defense but also make some infuriating plays (the errant pass to Cisse in the second half that ended in a turnover comes to mind). We just made fewer mistakes than they did and we had a dude that took over at the end. This will be a Q1 win for sure, even by the end of the season.

CP3 had an unusually rough game. 5 TOs is easily his worst game this season and I doubt it is replicated.

I would love to see Abidde and Jenkins get some more run as we play the SWAC/MEAC teams on our schedule. Jenkins has so much potential and I wonder if he would be someone we could plug and play while Porter is also on the court.

Mo wasn't particularly efficient, but he did a pretty good job overall last night. He's one-dimensional, but he's also damn strong.

Ricky has the chance to be REALLY good. Not that it's groundbreaking news or anything.

Qualitatively, our offense seems to be getting better, but we still only had 0.90 PPP last night so I'd hesitate to say that we're improving by leaps and bounds. Still not great and I doubt that will drastically change much this season.

I still think this team has a high ceiling due to our ability to lock teams down and some of the untapped potential in Council and Jenkins. It gets dicey when we play against a team that's deep in the frontcourt and/or our bigs get in foul trouble, but if we avoid that, we will be a tough out no matter who we're playing.

I would have taken 6-1 in a heartbeat if you had offered it to me before the season started.

That Memphis game on January 1 could be a big one if we take care of business against KSU and UNT. Far from a given though.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

I also wanted to add that I really appreciate the job Mike / Shane / Bob do. Those announcers last night were bad! Total homers.

[Ted Lasso's Neighbor]

Obviously, the first 7 minutes of the 2nd half was not good for the Shocker offense. But they did score 29 points over the final 13 minutes of the half. That is scoring at an 89 point per 40 minute game pace.

So what changed or how did that come about. So I went back to watch those final 13 minutes to look at this more closely. Here is how it went down:

12:50 Qua Grant drives down the left side of the lane, draws help from the 5 and dishes off to Kenny Photo for a dunk.

12:18 RCIV drops down to help on the OSU 5 and makes a clean steal, dives the length of the court down the right side, comes across the baseline, draws the defenders and dishes off to Monzy for a layup.

10:17 RCIV with a nice change of direction, change of pace move drives the left side of the lane, draws the defense to him and dumps the ball off to Mo for an and 1 lefty layup that Mo converts. This was a 4 pass possession.

9:30 Mo gets the post on the left block with his defender on his back. Mo makes is move his left but instead of forcing a well defended shot he hits RCIV in the left corner for a wide open 3 that Ricky drained.

7:52 Craig Porter skies for a rebound on a missed OSU rebound then from the top of the right side of the top of the key lays a dime on Mo who made a nice back cut off of a RCIV screen on a nice set play for another Mo layup.

6:50 RCIV gets the ball on the left wing, drives across the lane to the block on the right side of the lane, makes a right reverse pivot, goes up for a shot drawing two defenders then drops it off to Mo for another easy layup.

At this point that's 14 points after the opening drought. 4 coming from Triple D's (Drive, Draw, Dish), one post kick-out and one well executed set play with 5 of the 6 baskets layups or dunks. The Shocks recorded an assist on all 6 of these baskets.

5:57 Craig Porter with a strong drive from the left side of the top of the key down the right side of the lane for another layup. No assist non this one but RCIV and Mo both provided nice screens on what looked like another designed play.

5:25 RCIV on an baseline inbounds play takes it to the left block, makes to pump fakes (Barry Hinson's wife would have been proud) and banks in a 4 footer over taller defenders giving the Shocks a 49-48 lead.

4:00 Ricky had another nice steal at the top of the key but could not get the ball under control and OSU knocked the ball out of bounds under the Shocker basket. On the inbounds play Porter hit Ricky just left of the key and just inside the three point line. Ricky made a very nice step back move and knocked down another 3 pointer.

2:00 Ricky makes a strong move from the right wing to the free thow line, gets Likekele in air with a good pump fake (Barry's wife smiling again) and then raises above him to hit the mid-range jumper.

1:15 Ricky with an ISO play blew by Likekele from the right wing with a nice crossover all the way to the rim for an easy layup. Mo with a nice block out on Cisse to keep him away from the rim.

Porter, RCIV and Dexter then went to the free throw line in the final minute but only made 2 of 5 including RCIV badly missing the front end of a one and one to leave the door open for OSU but the Cowboys could not take advantage.

0:08 Tyson closed out the scoring with a put back of a missed layup on a break away by RCIV (looked like he was going for the dunk then changed his mind in flight). Don't think RCIV will get an assist on that one.

That stretch from the 12:50 mark to the 6:50 mark was really very nice basketball and should be shown over and over again to this team.

After that a really strong 5 minute stretch from RCIV carried the Shocks down the stretch.

A few plays in their that weren't great but generally pretty good execution by the Shocks on the offensive end in the final 13 minutes. Certainly good enough with the Shocks holding OSU to 3 free throws over the find 6 minutes of the game. More than good enough to win a lot of games with the way the Shocks defend. Free throws are called Free for a reason. Need to cash those in.

Good information! I'm curious about the WSU defense during that stretch as well. Did they press and play zone during that whole time vs man-to-man? I thought RCIV looked worn out on his free throw at the end - maybe they were missing free throws at the end because they were getting tired from pressing.

[TheShocktocles]

If Weber doesn't respect our program by now, it only further proves how mediocre of a coach he is.

It's not just Weber. It's most of the Northeast part of the state of Kansas. The fans up here are just terrible to live around.. Last week during the holidays I was told that Mark Turegon put WSU basketball on the map. Yikes!!! I didn't even respond to that craziness. I can't tell you how many times I have heard cat fans say we don't play anybody and that our league is weak.

I guess none of that matters now. The Shocks need to come ready to play and let their basketball play do the talking. No excuses get it done. This is not the time to rest on your accomplishments. The Shocks need to play good defense, rebound and make shots. What the heck is going on with the free throws? Go Shocks.

[1972Shocker]

CP3 had an unusually rough game. 5 TOs is easily his worst game this season and I doubt it is replicated.

Definitely more turnovers than you would like from Craig. Craig also had a tough shooting game. OTOH I thought Craig was very solid over the last 9 minute of the game after subbing in for Grant. None of his turnovers game during this stretch. I been impressed with his rebounding. Craig led the Shocker with 8 rebounds, 4 assists and tied Ricky for the team lead in steals with 3.

[SubGod22]

The only player that isn't getting very much playing time who may deserve it, is Chaunce, and he doesn't play the same position at Joe. I'm not sure whose playing time Chaunce would take, but TE's playing time probably isn't going to change right away. Ricky's emergence to a play maker that the defense needs to pay attention to, will help TE some as we go on. I was really impressed with Likele's defense last night, and he went to guard RC4 at the end of the game.

He could probably take some of Qua's minutes and help lighten the load for Ty a bit. Not sure Ty needs to be playing 30+ minutes right now, especially if he's not creating much offense for himself or others. He obviously still needs to be on the court as he's a threat and other teams will key in on him, but getting Chaunce some time is going to benefit everyone in the long run, even if it's only 8 minutes here and there for now.

[asiseeit]

Hard to imagine 6-1 with TE's overall play, DD's lack of offense, an offense that
looks bad much of the time, JP not contributing much, etc etc but I'll take it.
Love the grit and tenacious defense. Team looks similar to Smart's VCU teams.

[WuDrWu]

Plus 30 with Council IV on floor, minus 16 with Pleasant.

Pretty obvious why we seem to start every game and second half slow.

+30 with Ricky, -21 without. That's beyond stunning.

Something like 41-20 OSU when Ricky is on the bench & 40-10 WSU when he played. Just unreal.


It's brought up many times, but Higgy is SO good. I thought we got a couple of good calls from the other guy trying to make his mark on the game, but John (much like our guys down the stretch) doesn't get sped up, stays in control of the game without influencing the game and let's the teams decide the victor. Every time I see he's got our game, there's no concern and RARELY a bad call at an inopportune time (ISUr @ the Arch the clear exception).

Also, you just KNOW he sheds a tear knowing 3G's not there to enjoy each other's company. Lastly, his parody being gone from Twitter is criminal.

Mo accepting his limitations brings out the best in Mo. More Mo like that is good Mo. Mo mo, Mo momo mo mo.

Dexter is SO good defensively, and so is Likelele for OSU.

OSU did not play Cisse enough, and I have no idea why. I think Coach Boynton does a good job there, but IB got the best of him last night. Also, while effective at times earlier in the season, it was actually poorly executed. We were out of position a ton. There has been marked improvement with the zone.

Our help D was excellent last night as well. Actually beyond excellent. We attacked their weaknesses and protected against their strengths. Great execution.

As I said earlier, we have no chance to win when Tyson can't score. Clearly I've undervalued this team. Not only a win, but a Q1 road win against a P5 team that was 6-1.

Ricky made plays, and was considerably stronger on the defensive end last night, but that step back 3 and the next fade away jumper were just bad shots. I'm glad he's talented enough to be able to make shots like that.

ESPN put up a stat that said we led the country in 2 possession wins last year with 14. We're 4-1 this season in 2 possession games.

That means in HCIB's career, he's 22-7 overall and 18-5 in 2 possession games. That's an overall winning % of .759 and even better .783 in the close games. But 79% of all games are close games (and last night doesn't even count). Pretty darned remarkable, and at some point it ceases being a trend and starts being the norm. I don't know what that point is, but I'll say it again, my heart can't take another full season of these games.

This team is tough down the stretch, but still limited offensively, but they are clearly gaining confidence, especially in their ability to close. That might turn into a feeling of invincibility, which can be a very good thing. Confident they just can't be beat (not there yet, but perhaps not far away) can be a special thing.

I hope there's a full crowd (of Shocker fans) at IBA Sunday. These guys demand that kind of respect.


Great win! Go Shocks!

[WuDrWu]

He could probably take some of Qua's minutes and help lighten the load for Ty a bit. Not sure Ty needs to be playing 30+ minutes right now, especially if he's not creating much offense for himself or others. He obviously still needs to be on the court as he's a threat and other teams will key in on him, but getting Chaunce some time is going to benefit everyone in the long run, even if it's only 8 minutes here and there for now.

I actually feel like Qua is better than many people, even though he has headscratching turnovers at times. I think we'll be VERY happy with him in February and beyond.

It would be nice to get CJ some minutes this month. There should be ample opportunity to do just that.

[WeWillShockU2]

Wichita area KSU fans will be there and there are more than just a few of them. If Wichita Wildcat fans come in droves, they will number 3-5 Thousand.

Good. This is the way these interstate games should be. I hope it a loud crowd like a tournament game. Got my tickets. Buy some if you are on the fence. These Shockers are playing hard and deserve our support.

[pie n eye]

Maybe the starting lineup needs to change, but I'm not sold that is the answer.

I’m with you on this. In the first half we could have had at least 6 points in the early going but we missed some pretty easy layups.

In the second half we turned the ball over like 4 times to start, if I remember correctly, none of which were Joe Pleasant’s fault.

[1972Shocker]

Good information! I'm curious about the WSU defense during that stretch as well. Did they press and play zone during that whole time vs man-to-man? I thought RCIV looked worn out on his free throw at the end - maybe they were missing free throws at the end because they were getting tired from pressing.

The Shockers went to a zone for the first time in the 2nd half with about 9:00 minutes remaining in the game. It appears they were in a somewhat soft 3/4 court zone press falling back into their 1-3-1 matchup zone in the half court after made Shocker baskets. Fortunately, that was about the time the Shocks started to make some baskets. I counted 7 (maybe 8) possessions when they went to this between the 9:00 minute mark and the 2:00 minute mark of the half. If there was a stoppage of play resulting in an OSU in bounds play or an OSU offensive rebound the Shocks would switch back to man.

During this time the Shocks only gave up one 3 pointer while in the zone. That was the Cowboys only field goal in the final 9:49 of the game as the Shocks held them to 6 points from that point on.

The Shock may have been tired from playing hard on defense but i would not attribute that to pressing as the press was more of a make them use some of the shot clock press. But the Shocks played hard defense in the half-court regardless of whether they were in a zone or man. I thought their help defense when they were in a man was pretty good.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

The Shockers went to a zone for the first time with about 9:00 minutes remaining in the game. It appears they were in a somewhat soft 3/4 court zone press falling back into there 1-3-1 matchup zone in the half court after made Shocker baskets. Fortunately, that was about the time the Shocks started to make some baskets. I counted 7 (maybe 8) possessions when they went to this between the 9:00 minute mark and the 2:00 minute mark of the half. If the was a stoppage of play resulting in an OSU in bounds play the Shocks would switch back to man.

During this time the Shocks only gave up one 3 pointer while in the zone. That was the Cowboys only field goal in the final 9:49 of the game as the Shocks held them to 6 points from that point on.

The Shock may have been tired from playing hard on defense but i would not attribute that to pressing as the press was more of a make them use some of the shot clock press. But the Shocks played hard defense in the half-court regardless of whether they were in a zone or man. I thought there help defense when they were in a man was pretty good.

They played that zone in the first half as well. It was very successful. Was very surprised we waited that long to go back to it. Part of it I hope is these guys learning to defend. There are teams we won’t be able to play zone against.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

The Shockers went to a zone for the first time with about 9:00 minutes remaining in the game. It appears they were in a somewhat soft 3/4 court zone press falling back into there 1-3-1 matchup zone in the half court after made Shocker baskets. Fortunately, that was about the time the Shocks started to make some baskets. I counted 7 (maybe 8) possessions when they went to this between the 9:00 minute mark and the 2:00 minute mark of the half. If the was a stoppage of play resulting in an OSU in bounds play the Shocks would switch back to man.

During this time the Shocks only gave up one 3 pointer while in the zone. That was the Cowboys only field goal in the final 9:49 of the game as the Shocks held them to 6 points from that point on.

The Shock may have been tired from playing hard on defense but i would not attribute that to pressing as the press was more of a make them use some of the shot clock press. But the Shocks played hard defense in the half-court regardless of whether they were in a zone or man. I thought there help defense when they were in a man was pretty good.

I liked the zone with CP playing further out at the top. Seemed to really catch OSU off guard and confuse. Especially with a team that isn't a great 3 point shooting team. I think HCIB and staff noticed that the pokes were really struggling with the shot (except Anderson) and they implemented the zone at the exact right time to put the choke hold on.

I give the coaches an A for the game plan last night. I don't know who had the scout but it was on point.

[ShockerExpress]

Are you seriously gonna keep arguing this? You think OSU is a tournament team? Based on what? Michigan was ranked 4th in the preseason. How’s that working out?

2017-18 we started with a higher baseline. Surely you understand how that works right? We also had superb metrics that year. That helped. Oh and we lost the conference by a point and beat a Top 5 team on the road. That sort of helps… I guess you’re banking on that for us this year.

Just stop arguing with me just for the sake of arguing with me.

"Started with a higher baseline" sure sounds like a load of crap to me. Idk what that even means?

Based on their returners coming off a good finish in the Big 12 last year? WTF are you basing yours on? Watching one game?

I think this team could beat a top-5 team on the road, sure! Won the conference a year ago so idk why they can't this year.

Stop arguing with me just for the sake of arguing with me. You lost.

Take the L.