Next Year

[ShockingButTrue]

Could be why Trey Wade moved on

Surely.

Wade did the best he could, but Brown addressed the need for a true 'power forward' which moves Trey to small forward, and that's already a strength for WSU, taking into consideration Council's improvement, along with Dex and CJ. He was looking at more bench time here than he would have seen at Nevada, or wherever he ends up.

[Shockm]

I liked both of those players but I'm not sure that they would have moved the needle very much to make us a better team.

[wufan]

I liked both of those players but I'm not sure that they would have moved the needle very much to make us a better team.

Not that I disagree, but with recruiting, it’s always two in the bush.

[ShockingButTrue]

I sound like a broken record, but a point who can handle the ball like a true point, if nothing else, is what a good team needs to possess to avoid offensive stagnation (as much as is possible) and bad turnovers. Set up the offense. Work a 2-man game. Gilbert performed more than adequately in those areas.

Prior to this season the Shockers lacked a bit in having a true facilitator, and it kind of showed.

[pie n eye]

I sound like a broken record, but a point who can handle the ball like a true point, if nothing else, is what a good team needs to possess to avoid offensive stagnation (as much as is possible) and bad turnovers. Set up the offense. Work a 2-man game. Gilbert performed more than adequately in those areas.

Prior to this season the Shockers lacked a bit in having a true facilitator, and it kind of showed.

I think having a team full of guys who can and will pass is more important to avoiding stagnation than having one PG who dribbles around a bunch.

[ShockingButTrue]

I think having a team full of guys who can and will pass is more important to avoiding stagnation than having one PG who dribbles around a bunch.

What part of what I posted inferred a guard who "dribbles too much?" What part of "as much as is possible" didn't you understand? EVERY offense faces stagnant moments, just some more than others...

So, are you debating the merits of having a good, true (not converted), point guard if one hopes to win an NCAA tournament game or two? That's like saying what's wrong with having a 6'8 center and 6'5 power forward to achieve success; meaning winning in the Big Dance. Sure, we see that all the time in March.

[shock]

What part of what I posted inferred a guard who "dribbles too much?" What part of "as much as is possible" didn't you understand? EVERY offense faces stagnant moments, just some more than others...

So, are you debating the merits of having a good, true (not converted), point guard if one hopes to win an NCAA tournament game or two? That's like saying what's wrong with having a 6'8 center and 6'5 power forward to achieve success; meaning winning in the Big Dance. Sure, we see that all the time in March.

You need to get laid.

[Shock Top]

You need to get laid.

To be fair, that probably goes for 85% of ShockerNet.

[ShockingButTrue]

You need to get laid.

You're obviously the one with the hard-on pal (kinda' giving me the creeps), so go find someone else to pigeonhole. We're trying to have an intelligent basketball conversation here, ok?




NAMASTE (we know you were just trying to be funny)

[pie n eye]

What part of what I posted inferred a guard who "dribbles too much?" What part of "as much as is possible" didn't you understand? EVERY offense faces stagnant moments, just some more than others...

So, are you debating the merits of having a good, true (not converted), point guard if one hopes to win an NCAA tournament game or two? That's like saying what's wrong with having a 6'8 center and 6'5 power forward to achieve success; meaning winning in the Big Dance. Sure, we see that all the time in March.

“Handle the ball like a true point” leaves a lot open for interpretation. You pointed at Gilbert as an adequate example. IMO Gilbert over dribbled at times and wasn’t a very efficient scorer.

People lament the lack of “true point” guards as though there’s one way to play the position and anything else won’t cut it. I don’t agree with that at all.

What does that term even mean? A pass first point guard who doesn’t look to score? We’ve got a guy like that - Craig Porter. I wish he would look to score more often.

I like a team with as many well rounded players as possible. Guys who can handle, score, distribute and defend. One guy who stands around and pounds the ball for 20 seconds can definitely work but I prefer to see multiple ball handlers and play makers.

[ShockingButTrue]

“Handle the ball like a true point” leaves a lot open for interpretation. You pointed at Gilbert as an adequate example. IMO Gilbert over dribbled at times and wasn’t a very efficient scorer.

People lament the lack of “true point” guards as though there’s one way to play the position and anything else won’t cut it. I don’t agree with that at all.

What does that term even mean? A pass first point guard who doesn’t look to score? We’ve got a guy like that - Craig Porter. I wish he would look to score more often.

I like a team with as many well rounded players as possible. Guys who can handle, score, distribute and defend. One guy who stands around and pounds the ball for 20 seconds can definitely work but I prefer to see multiple ball handlers and play makers.

Leaves a lot to interpretation to you, but not to D. Vitale, B. Walton, D. Enberg, D. Stockton, T. Heinson, R. Auerbach, 'Goose' Doughty, Shock (well, maybe not him), GGG, etc. etc.

I'm seriously trying to understand your position. Is it that having a good point guard is an over-rated trait and not really necessary to make a team successful (which is my point)? If so you are clearly in the minority there. Or are you just lamenting the fact that Gilbert really didn't do much to help the offense (and defense), and we can all expect for better things from Porter?

A/TO ratio is the best empirical measurement to evaluate the ball control and ball handling skills of a player, and it has been for the last 70 years. So you bet, we can absolutely include shooting guards, forwards and centers in that conversation. Heck, offensive sets and strategy's (and, of course, defensive) can point to that stat, almost practically alone, as a template, when game-planning for an NCAA game.

[pie n eye]

Leaves a lot to interpretation to you, but not to D. Vitale, B. Walton, D. Enberg, D. Stockton, T. Heinson, R. Auerbach, 'Goose' Doughty, Shock (well, maybe not him), GGG, etc. etc.

I'm seriously trying to understand your position. Is it that having a good point guard is an over-rated trait and not really necessary to make a team successful (which is my point)? If so you are clearly in the minority there. Or are you just lamenting the fact that Gilbert really didn't do much to help the offense (and defense), and we can all expect for better things from Porter?

A/TO ratio is the best empirical measurement to evaluate the ball control and ball handling skills of a player, and it has been for the last 70 years. So you bet, we can absolutely include shooting guards, forwards and centers in that conversation. Heck, offensive sets and strategy's (and, of course, defensive) can point to that stat, almost practically alone, as a template, when game-planning for an NCAA game.

I’ll give you a recent example. Our best offense in the Marshall era was run by a player many considered not a true point guard - Landry Shamet.

Was he or wasn’t he? I don’t know and I don’t really care. He could handle, shoot, pass and make good decisions. He also moved really well off the ball. He was surrounded by several other guys who could handle, shoot, pass and make good decisions. Were any of them true point guards? Don’t know, don’t care. I personally don’t have much use for the term.

[WuTheOne]

A "true point guard" is a guy who can compromise a defense and then take advantage of spots that are less well-guarded. Doesn't matter if the D is broken down by penetration or by the ability to create an open shot for himself. Although Shamet is obviously at his best off-ball, he could break a defense down.

Burton could sort of break a defense down, but he didn't have a knack for passing to less well-guarded players. When the D collapsed on him, he stayed with it and put it up himself. Sherfield tried to break defenses down, but with the schemes WSU was running, he had to get past his defender on the perimeter to do that. When he couldn't get past his defender, he ended up dribbling back and forth a lot. Apparently Nevada runs sets more suited to Sherfield's skillset, because his stats last year sure looked like he was a "true point guard", and he wasn't that here.

[ShockingButTrue]

I’ll give you a recent example. Our best offense in the Marshall era was run by a player many considered not a true point guard - Landry Shamet.

Was he or wasn’t he? I don’t know and I don’t really care. He could handle, shoot, pass and make good decisions. He also moved really well off the ball. He was surrounded by several other guys who could handle, shoot, pass and make good decisions. Were any of them true point guards? Don’t know, don’t care. I personally don’t have much use for the term.

That team disappointed a bit come March, considering it was a senior dominated team, something WSU hasn't had close to since then.

And the last we saw of that team, against Marshall in the dance, they lost the points off turnovers battle TWENTY SEVEN TO SEVEN (ouch). Guess who led the team in turnovers? And truly, my only memory of that game is watching Landry get his pocket picked just walking the ball up the floor. Marshall's point whipped his butt all over the floor (but he was pretty good). Remember that?

Before that, remember when Charlie Hustle, in his senior season, R. Baker (who I like by the way), bombed (meaning the team bombed) at his chance to play the point? Remember how much better the team played when our other, true, point returned?

One of these days (sooner rather than later hopefully) WSU's gonna get another true point, and that's probably right around the same time they'll make a good March run. You'll know one when you see one, indisputably. I haven't given up on Porter yet. Maybe Qua?

[shock]

That team disappointed a bit come March, considering it was a senior dominated team, something WSU hasn't had close to since then.

And the last we saw of that team, against Marshall in the dance, they lost the points off turnovers battle TWENTY SEVEN TO SEVEN (ouch). Guess who led the team in turnovers? And truly, my only memory of that game is watching Landry get his pocket picked just walking the ball up the floor. Marshall's point whipped his butt all over the floor (but he was pretty good). Remember that?

Before that, remember when Charlie Hustle, in his senior season, R. Baker (who I like by the way), bombed (meaning the team bombed) at his chance to play the point? Remember how much better the team played when our other, true, point returned?

One of these days (sooner rather than later hopefully) WSU's gonna get another true point, and that's probably right around the same time they'll make a good March run. You'll know one when you see one, indisputably. I haven't given up on Porter yet. Maybe Qua?

Landry’s team had an effort issue. They didn’t want to play D. The issue wasn’t the point play (wasn’t Austin the point?), it was that they just couldn’t get it done on defense.

When Fred was hurt the team suffered because the offense wasn’t set for that personnel and there was no one to replace Ron. Ron had to play his role and Fred’s role.

Toure Murry had the same issue his senior(?) season as Ron when he had to run the point for the first half until Joe came up to speed on the offense.

The issue, in my opinion, is not pure point vs scoring point. The issue is impatience with players who need time to develop and, in the past, learn a very complex offense. I think we will see a much more simple offense from HCIB that leans more to stretch 4s where players can lean on athleticism instead of the point where they are expected to be a floor general. That takes the pressure off of having a cerebral point and makes it easier to plug and play guards in a era were rangy athleticism is valued higher and easier to find.