This Program Has Officially Fallen

[shocker3]

sorry I watched the 1989 team play. The 2010 edition is no 1989 team.

Sad that we compare against a team that competed 21 years ago...


and it isn't a fair comparison.. you can't truthfully/accurately compare anything from present day that happened 2+ decades ago.. imho

Regardless, whether it is fair or not to compare the 2010, you can't have it both ways. You can't have the apologists say "well the 1989 team had it problems just like....blah blah".

I would disagree you can't compare the two - you can easily put the two teams side by side and make comparison to determine the state of the program and the relative strength and weaknesses of each team.

Bottom line is the 2010 team will be judged on what it does post season. If they somehow are able to finally get it together and have a WSU team overachieve for once (it has been a long time since that has happened), then there will be a sense of excitement returning to the program.

I would also agree that the 2010 team will be judged on what it does during the post season.

It is way too early in the season to pass judgement now.

[ISASO]

Most all of that team's come-aparts happened after it had established itself as one of the best teams in the country.

[shocker3]

Most all of that team's come-aparts happened after it had established itself as one of the best teams in the country.

The 1989 team also had time to come together and establish itself. After losing the opening game at Arkansas 5-1, they played a lot of easy games at home. And as I recall one of those games (against Ft. Hays St) was a real struggle that we eventually and barely won.

This year's team didn't have that luxury. I see a lot of talent and potential on this years team. We will see how it plays out as the season continues.

[ShoxJ32]

Booed?...in our own stadium? Anyone who EVER does that again will have to go through me. Ridiculous. Yes, I'd like to see us win, or at least play well even in a loss, but don't forget: these are college STUDENTS and our examples will be with them for a very very long time. Fortunately, I don't think we have any boo-birds around anymore (correct me if I'm wrong) but i DO hear plenty of people cursing players and coaches at every turn. Disgusting. Enjoy Shocker baseball. It's a wonderful thing.
Go Shox.

[kstarheel]

I still think that this team will figure it out. I'm reminded of what Fresno St. did a couple seasons ago and I'll keep some hope. (not saying we'll win the CWS). We have the talent and pitching to 'steal' a regional from someone like we (they) did at Ok St. I don't think we can we a Super, but here's hoping....

[SHOCKvalue]

Booed?...in our own stadium? Anyone who EVER does that again will have to go through me. Ridiculous. Yes, I'd like to see us win, or at least play well even in a loss, but don't forget: these are college STUDENTS and our examples will be with them for a very very long time. Fortunately, I don't think we have any boo-birds around anymore (correct me if I'm wrong) but i DO hear plenty of people cursing players and coaches at every turn. Disgusting. Enjoy Shocker baseball. It's a wonderful thing.
Go Shox.

Yes, the blue-haired geriatrics who cheer for nothing and jeer at the slightest negative, are slowly dying off. Unfortunately, the younger generation replacing them prefers to sit out on the hill - far from the action - and get sloshed, so I'm not sure the turnover is a net positive.

[DUShock]

I'm as disgusted as everyone, and I guarantee no one is more embarrassed than Gene. And I've said for years J.T. needs to go. But Gene has earned the right to decide when he will retire and not have his head called for like some Mike Cohen.

For that reason, and because I am thankful for everything he has done for WSU, I will remain loyal to him 'til the end no matter how ugly it gets.

P.S. I, too, am looking forward to the Royals, but that would be the case no matter how the Shox were doing.

In my opinion and I respect those who disagree with me but Gene forfeited that right when he took his "sabbatical" to Oklahoma and making comments along the line of 'going as far I can go at Wichita State".

[SB Shock]

Booed?...in our own stadium? Anyone who EVER does that again will have to go through me.

That should be fun to watch.

Fortunately, I don't think we have any boo-birds around anymore (correct me if I'm wrong) but i DO hear plenty of people cursing players and coaches at every turn.

You would be wrong. It happens every so often, usually from the people sitting down in the "entitled seats".

Especially if WSU doesn't not only sweep Indiana State, but blow them out. [just for the gratification of Indy State fans http://www.sycamorehoops.com/showthread.php?t=5936

[ShockerFever]

Booed?...in our own stadium? Anyone who EVER does that again will have to go through me.

That should be fun to watch.

Fortunately, I don't think we have any boo-birds around anymore (correct me if I'm wrong) but i DO hear plenty of people cursing players and coaches at every turn.

You would be wrong. It happens every so often, usually from the people sitting down in the "entitled seats".

Especially if WSU doesn't not only sweep Indiana State, but blow them out. [just for the gratification of Indy State fans http://www.sycamorehoops.com/showthread.php?t=5936

Suckamore fans have to get out of their board once in a while. Too much losing going in that athletic program. Not a surprise that we would be a magnet of attention there.

I do find it a bit ironic that those cheapened fans finds it humorous. One thing I can easily laugh at through these tough times is Indiana State fans. That place has nothing going for them ever. They get happy about mot making the play-in rounds in basketball. They are satisfied with sweeps over Bradley in baseball. That's the difference between a fanbase of winners and a fanbase of losers.

[ShockerFever]

I just got home from the game and I am a little disappointed on how quickly you guys are ready to give up on this team and the coaches.

I think we shouldn't over react. I went over to warren nolan to check our rpi and the rpis of our opponents.

We have played a pretty tough schedule so far with a lot of tough games on the road. A 14-8 record (.636 winning percentage) isn't that bad.

A breakdown of our record by our opponents rpi:

RPI TOP 25- 0-3 (all 3 games on the road)
RPI 26 TO 50- 2-2 (only 1 home game of the 4)
PRI 51 TO 100- 2-2 (all 4 games away from home)

RPI 101 TO 150: 2-1
PRI 151 TO 200: 3-0
RPI 200 and worse: 5-0

The bottom line is that we have played 11 games (4-7) against the rpi top 100 and only one of them has been at home.

Our only loss outside the top 100 is one loss to FLORIDA GULF COAST (#142). And I have a feeling that by the end of the season that will also look like a much better loss (and 2 wins).

If our basketball team played half of their first 22 games against the rpi top 100 and only played one of those games at home, I think we would be estatic with a 14-8 overall record.

Right now our rpi is 67 (not great but far from horrible). Our two best wins are against Washington St. #36 and Long Beach St. #42 and our worst loss is against Florida Gulf Coast #142.

Right now we don't have any losses that should hurt us at the end of the season (I think FCG will be much better than 142 by then). Of course that could change after this weekend if we lose to UE. (Although UE's rpi isn't that bad right now at 127- but I expect that it will be worse by the end of the season).

Do I wish we were doing better, yes. I always want us to win and I want to go to Omaha every year. But I dont think we should overreact to our start . We are having far from a horrible season. In fact, we are still ranked #30 in the country.

Baseball is a long season. This team has played some very good teams on the road so far and has picked up a couple of good wins. Hopefully we will pick up a few more before the season is over. :wsu_posters:

I admit that was some nice sugarcoating, shocker3. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as looking at the numbers. But since you did bring them up, how bad are we losing games. We absolutely got eaten alive at Arizona and even ORU to an extent. We weren't even competitive. Literally, the Arizona games were over after the 2nd inning. How can you spin that?

And then you have to look beyond the numbers. Have you watched this team play? (I'm sure you have or you did last night.) Did you see the 5 lovetap hits we mustered last night? Did you see the meatballs Grant Muncrief was serving up? Or for the entire bullpen for that matter? There was not one pitcher that stepped up and bared down on their first batter from the get-go. There is no confidence with the bullpen. I know I feel it everytime we get to there. You'd probably be lying if you didn't feel that sinking feeling either. Hell, it's obvious Gene isn't confident in them either. And what about the defense? Did you watch how balls were thrown into center field? Did you not see not once but TWICE our centerfielder overrun balls and have to scurry back to retrieve a Little League blunder that they made? And this wasn't just a freak game. This has been going on ALL YEAR.

It's a sad, sad, oh so sad day.. :(

Please calm down and quit over reacting. That is all I was asking.

Yes I have seen most of the games this team has played this year. No I don't like it when they make errors and don't play sound baseball. Which I have seen more of than I like but again I don't over re-act.

I have been watching baseball for about 45 years and I have been watching Shocker baseball for 32 years. In fact I have probably watched more shocker baseball games than anyone alive except the coaches. I have yet to see a perfect baseball team. One that never makes errors or always gets timely hits or always has a reliever that can get everybody out (although Jimmy Newlin was pretty close).

Even the 1989 team which won a national championship had plenty of faults and plenty of bad games. They had the luxury of starting the season with about half of their first 22 games being played against non-division 1 teams at home (instead of half of their games on the road against the rpi top 100).

The 1989 championship team certainly had their great games and moments but they certainly had their bad ones too. I remember watching them struggle to beat Ft. Hays St by one run. I remember them losing to Lewis & Clark, I remember them losing to a bad Ku team at home late in the season and getting booed by some fair weathered Shocker fans.

I remember them closing out the regular season at home by getting beaten badly by BYU twice (Arizona games type of bad).

I remember them losing the Valley tourney at home (Indiana St. won it).

Baseball can just drive you nuts sometimes. A 15-8 record, considering the tough schedule we have played so far is not that bad and certainly is not worth talking about firing the coaches over.

Going on the road early in the season to places like Long Beach and Arizona is never easy. And we haven't won at ORU since the mid 90s, so losing there isn't anything new either (ORU doesn't lose too many games at home). Yeah I wish we had done better, but there is still a lot more season left to be played.

I certainly intend to enjoy watching a lot more Shocker baseball this year and I hope that Gene still has many good years left in him.


:wsu_posters:

I'm not overreacting. Overreacting would be swearing off watching another Shocker baseball again with the current situation continuing. It's a mere pointing out of the obvious. Some have accepted it (I finally have now..). Others choose to wait it out to the very dying end. I realize it's hard to to turn your back on something that has given us so much, but as MizzouShocker said, a monster was created, and when that monster isn't fed at the right pace, you have to feed it. We're coasting in on fumes right now.. Something has to change, even if it is the ones who started it all.

As others have mentioned, there is no comparison to 1989. It's an insult to the 1989 team for ever even mentioning them in this thread.

Going to Arizona and Long Beach may not be easy, but you should remain competitive. ORU is the same way. You can't just look at each individual game and see win or loss. You have to look at HOW each of them occurred. If you look how each loss is happening, you'll understand the serious reason for concern brought on by so many.

I appreciate you being a loyalist to the end. I understand with the history involved that it may be a touchy subject. But when would be the last straw? Would it be a losing season? How about back-to-back losing seasons? Not finishing Top 4 in the Valley? Where do you draw the line? Does the current personnel automatically deserve a lifetime pass for the things they've done, even if it means that they begin to hurt the program from which they built? Of course certain leeway should be given and respect for what they have done.. but where do you draw the line?

I personally don't accept little offense, bad pitching, and disgusting defense with this program. I definitely don't with which the consistency that it's happening.

[shocker3]

I think calling for the coach to be fired when we are 15-8 and in first place of the conference is over reacting (especially when we have played so many top teams on the road).

Gene and Brent ARE Shocker baseball. When they are gone (whenever that day comes) that is the day in my opinion that the music dies.

Look at reality. WSU does NOT have football and we play in a northern conference (cold-weathered) where most of the schools could care less about baseball. The BCS schools have all started spending a lot more money on baseball. It will be very hard for any future coach to continue our baseball tradition.

I don't think fans that are quick to criticize and call for new coaches, fully appreciate the tough job that Gene and Brent have these days.

Gene has built a very big fan base and some very nice facilities that the next coach would inherit. Unfortunately I don't think those 2 things will be enough to sustain Shocker baseball as we know it after the current coaches are gone.

I think that our best chance to get back to Omaha is with the current coaches. Maybe we will get lucky and find another young Gene who could keep things going. Maybe we could get lucky and go to Omaha once as Missouri State did a few years ago (and went 0-2). I truly believe that once our current coaches are gone that our chances of getting back to Omaha and returning to national prominence go way down.

What is that old saying. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

[ShockTalk]

I think calling for the coach to be fired when we are 15-8 and in first place of the conference is over reacting (especially when we have played so many top teams on the road).

Gene and Brent ARE Shocker baseball. When they are gone (whenever that day comes) that is the day in my opinion that the music dies.

Look at reality. WSU does NOT have football and we play in a northern conference where most of the schools could care less about baseball. The BCS schools have all started spending a lot more money on baseball. It will be very hard for any future coach to continue our baseball tradition.

I don't think fans that are quick to criticize and call for new coaches, fully appreciate the tough job that Gene and Brent have these days.

Gene has built a very big fan base and some very nice facilities that the next coach would inherit. Unfortunately I don't think those 2 things will be enough to sustain Shocker baseball as we know it after the current coaches are gone.

I think that our best chance to get back to Omaha is with the current coaches. Maybe we will get lucky and find another young Gene who could keep things going. Maybe we could get lucky and go to Omaha once as Missouri State did a few years ago (and went 0-2). I truly believe that once our current coaches are gone that our chances of getting back to Omaha and returning to national prominence go way down.

What is that old saying. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

First, I've never called for Brent's head. I believe he's doing a great job given the circumstances which are not under his control.

As for Gene, I believe he's still capable of good, if not great, things. But I feel he's going to need to make decisions in staff, recruiting efforts, and perhaps tactics to get this program back on an upward swing. If he's unwilling to make any of those changes, then maybe he needs to make that Big Decision before it has to be made for him.

Yes, I have a real problem with JT. I don't believe he's getting the job done and hasn't for some time. A change here would give an opportunity for new, younger blood. Someone who has a real fire in their belly to succeed and, maybe, take over this program someday. Someone who will beat those recruiting bushes a little harder. A person, who may not have the experience of JT, but would bring a new, fresh approach. Someone who the players may be able to better relate to (age-wise, not knocking JT). I don't have the answer to this and I don't know if my favorites are qualified enough, but I do like Hooper or Wyckoff.

[KC Shox]

I think calling for the coach to be fired when we are 15-8 and in first place of the conference is over reacting (especially when we have played so many top teams on the road).

Gene and Brent ARE Shocker baseball. When they are gone (whenever that day comes) that is the day in my opinion that the music dies.

Look at reality. WSU does NOT have football and we play in a northern conference where most of the schools could care less about baseball. The BCS schools have all started spending a lot more money on baseball. It will be very hard for any future coach to continue our baseball tradition.

I don't think fans that are quick to criticize and call for new coaches, fully appreciate the tough job that Gene and Brent have these days.

Gene has built a very big fan base and some very nice facilities that the next coach would inherit. Unfortunately I don't think those 2 things will be enough to sustain Shocker baseball as we know it after the current coaches are gone.

I think that our best chance to get back to Omaha is with the current coaches. Maybe we will get lucky and find another young Gene who could keep things going. Maybe we could get lucky and go to Omaha once as Missouri State did a few years ago (and went 0-2). I truly believe that once our current coaches are gone that our chances of getting back to Omaha and returning to national prominence go way down.

What is that old saying. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Gene and the DONORS have done a great job in keeping up and surpassing the Jones' in some cases the facilities equation. However, a bad economy and losing do not bode well for the upcoming second phase. We are paying our coaches over 500K combined and rely heavily on the walk-up crowd, our poor play is going to impact some of that crowd. Not now, but eventually if this losing continues will have to take a hard look at what the program is getting for their money. Whether that is salary cuts, an indefinite hold on facility upgrades, etc.

I want Gene and crew to remain here until they retire but with today's parity in college baseball and more-and-more BCS programs funneling money into their baseball programs the hole is getting bigger and bigger for WSU to dig itself out of. If this trend continues, the future generation will know nothing of WSU baseball and the current ones only know us as having a great tradition but we are falling into baseball obscurity with every loss.

For the past two years now we have been the 3rd best program in the state. I don't know about you, but that is unacceptable. We dominate KU and KSU in facilities and fan support yet they have surpassed us. There is no magic bullet right now that is going to resolve the issue quickly, we have dug a huge hole and have too many deficiencies in the field.

Like I said before, thank goodness we are in the Valley, as it provides us our best chance to make the post season.

[SB Shock]

Gene has built a very big fan base and some very nice facilities that the next coach would inherit. Unfortunately I don't think those 2 things will be enough to sustain Shocker baseball as we know it after the current coaches are gone.

Looks like the abyss for Shocker baseball. I wonder when Gene leaves if we will look up and see asteroids headed for the earth, or the earth opening up around eck stadium, or will it be a nice day with birds chirping and singing?

[ICT Ragman]

This monolithic 'BCS' thing is funny to me in regards to baseball. The Big 10 and Big East, for example, are not traditionally good baseball conferences, while a host of 'mid-major' leagues around the country are. This has a lot more to do with weather than budgets - which in turn becomes a sort of self fulfilling prophecy.

Some BCS schools are paying more attention to baseball -- some are not. Budgets are tight everywhere, I don't care how good your football team is. Meanwhile the ORUs and Dallas Baptists of the world pop up thanks to parity which is more of a factor in baseball than any other sport.

All this makes WSU's ability to raise money for baseball all the more rare and exciting ( see: building the indoor facility during the worst economy in 50 years).

I firmly believe that our coaching staff , facilities and our fan base's financial backing for baseball at WSU will assure that this program will weather short term volatility and inevitable cycles as well as any program out there.

And I also believe the issues around a particular 'team' ( not a 'program') that isn't winning on the road right now after being in Super Regionals - one game away from Omaha- two of the last three years indeed falls in the 'short term' category.

This year's team could be very good and I am looking forward to the rest of the season.